It all began with a 'First Contact'

[Christel]

Some 30+ years ago, there was contact (reference Jaime Lee Curtis in the movie Fierce Creatures, when she meets the gorilla).
Fast forward to this last Christmas, a gift in the form of a chameleon was received, and the frenzied research began.
It was on the internet, it MUST be TRUE! Right?
How to house, how to water, to handle or not, and what to feed. A constant learning experience, with the ever present fear that I might have missed something, or be doing something wrong.
We are still getting to know each other, and training each other as well. Still hungry? She lets me know. Thirsty? She lets me know, and is also learning to drink from a handheld water bottle .
After swinging by a pet store last night for some crickets, I got to thinking about gut loading, and couldn't remember what veggies Chams could eat. I did some research on the long drive home, and stumbled across more Cham sites, listing possible food sources, including fruits and pinkies! (which I only considered as a potential additional source for calcium, in the same vein as raptors). Finding an old thread on here before asking questions that may have already been answered, I came to the conclusion that I couldn't tell if the debate was ever settled one way or another.
Thoughts? And, in my defense, I only began to consider this, being in fear of having underfed calcium per advice from a reptile owner ("oh, once a week is just fine") vs online statements of "use calcium every feeding".

 

[cyberlocc]

Some 30+ years ago, there was contact (reference Jaime Lee Curtis in the movie Fierce Creatures, when she meets the gorilla).
Fast forward to this last Christmas, a gift in the form of a chameleon was received, and the frenzied research began.
It was on the internet, it MUST be TRUE! Right?
How to house, how to water, to handle or not, and what to feed. A constant learning experience, with the ever present fear that I might have missed something, or be doing something wrong.
We are still getting to know each other, and training each other as well. Still hungry? She lets me know. Thirsty? She lets me know, and is also learning to drink from a handheld water bottle .
After swinging by a pet store last night for some crickets, I got to thinking about gut loading, and couldn't remember what veggies Chams could eat. I did some research on the long drive home, and stumbled across more Cham sites, listing possible food sources, including fruits and pinkies! (which I only considered as a potential additional source for calcium, in the same vein as raptors). Finding an old thread on here before asking questions that may have already been answered, I came to the conclusion that I couldn't tell if the debate was ever settled one way or another.
Thoughts? And, in my defense, I only began to consider this, being in fear of having underfed calcium per advice from a reptile owner ("oh, once a week is just fine") vs online statements of "use calcium every feeding".

The Calcium to Phospherous Ratio in alot of feeders, is terrible.

You want a 2:1/3:1 CA/P ratio which with crickets, roaches, worms, ect you will not get. When feeding these insects, they should be dusted with Calcium, Only Calcium, no D3 in it with some exceptions.

Feeders that are already very high in Calcium, do not need Dusted. This includes things like Black Soldier Flies, their Larvae, Isopods, Snails.


You will still want to add a Multi Vitamin, likely with D3 (there is some folks, trying to move away from the use of D3, but these are not hardened ideas yet, that I would feel comfortable telling someone new to chameleons to try. So D3 twice a month, and a Multi Vitamin twice a month. Another option is to use Rephasy Calcium Plus LoD (Low D3), this is a small dose of D3 and MV, with alot of calcium, it can be used at every feeding in place of Calcium alone. Sticky Farms outdoor is similar.

 

[Hashtag ChamLife]

Some 30+ years ago, there was contact (reference Jaime Lee Curtis in the movie Fierce Creatures, when she meets the gorilla).
Fast forward to this last Christmas, a gift in the form of a chameleon was received, and the frenzied research began.
It was on the internet, it MUST be TRUE! Right?
How to house, how to water, to handle or not, and what to feed. A constant learning experience, with the ever present fear that I might have missed something, or be doing something wrong.
We are still getting to know each other, and training each other as well. Still hungry? She lets me know. Thirsty? She lets me know, and is also learning to drink from a handheld water bottle .
After swinging by a pet store last night for some crickets, I got to thinking about gut loading, and couldn't remember what veggies Chams could eat. I did some research on the long drive home, and stumbled across more Cham sites, listing possible food sources, including fruits and pinkies! (which I only considered as a potential additional source for calcium, in the same vein as raptors). Finding an old thread on here before asking questions that may have already been answered, I came to the conclusion that I couldn't tell if the debate was ever settled one way or another.
Thoughts? And, in my defense, I only began to consider this, being in fear of having underfed calcium per advice from a reptile owner ("oh, once a week is just fine") vs online statements of "use calcium every feeding".

Simply put, the prevailing theory is that the occasional pinky is "unnatural". From what I've been able to research, the pinky being so young actually contains very minimal calcium in its bones as they haven't fully developed. They also take quite a long time for the chams to digest. Kinyonga posted a few articles of stomach contents of wild chams and there were the occasional anole [typical yard lizard], but no pinkies. They are also super high in fats and proteins.

Basically, there isn't a definite yes or no... I elect not to feed them for the previously mentioned reasons, but if you do, it shouldn't be more than a few per YEAR. If you need an influx of calcium for some reason, your best bet is getting a shot at the vet. Next would be liquid calcium. Do remember that calcium has to be built up, converted and used (D3/natural sun). Giving a cham a massive dose of calcium isn't exactly helpful by itself.

Food wise, snails are theorized to be the best calcium source. Their shells are like 99.5% calcium and take days/weeks to break down in a chams system, giving it a constant "drip" of calcium.

Best wishes.

 

[Lennoncham]

Pinkies are fed for their vitamin a content not their calcium content. I have fed a few pinkies to my chams but I don’t anymore cause I can give them vit a in different ways. No need to give them a huge meal of a pinky mouse. Also they wouldn’t eat a pinkie mouse in the wild since they would be in their nest underground.

 

[kinyonga]

Thought this page might help to answer some of your questions or concerns about chameleons...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/

 

[Christel]

Thank you. I have read it, and such appearing in a chamcare search found it, and brought me here
I just keep finding other pages that list supposed edibles, such as the pinkies, and gut loading with fish food as good; and then, on here, I find out otherwise.
For all it's worth, I'm sticking with what I learn here.

 

[kinyonga]

There is a lot of information out there and some of it is not good. It's definitely hard to sort out the good from the bad.

Sticking on here is a good idea IMHO. We don't always agree on everything on here either but there are lots of people here who have kept chameleons for many years and the ways they keep them the chameleons have long healthy lives.

 

[cyberlocc]

Thank you. I have read it, and such appearing in a chamcare search found it, and brought me here
I just keep finding other pages that list supposed edibles, such as the pinkies, and gut loading with fish food as good; and then, on here, I find out otherwise.
For all it's worth, I'm sticking with what I learn here.

Gut Loading with fish food, is well complicated lol.

On one hand, the animal protein is good for the insects, and its pretty realistic to assume they would eat animal protein in the wild. If you want Roaches to breed super super fast, and strong. Keep the temps high and feed Dog/Cat/Fish food.

The Proteins that roaches eat and can use, they will relish, they will use it. However the excess protein that is leftover, the roaches store in their bodies in the form of uric acids. These stored proteins and Uric Acid, will cause the Chameleon, that is not built to consume much if any Animal Protein will cause Gout and other health issues.

The issue here, is that in the wild, Chameleons dont eat Roaches, and Roaches do eat dead animals. So the The roaches have Adapted to process and utilize the animal Proteins, however the chameleon has not adapted to eating roaches, that are eating dead animals.

A lot of Commercial roach breeders, will feed Animal Protein as well, even if they say they dont I wouldn't bet on it. The Animal Protein is a superior energy source for the roaches, its cheaper than plant based, it ends with larger more frequent clutches. Someone who's goal is to breed as many as fast as possible for the least amount of money, is going to use Dog Food.

For that reason, plus roaches are easy to breed and keep alive and super cheap, I would always suggest breeding your own. Or finding a source, you feel you can trust if they say they are not using Animal Protein.

So we suggest using plant protein, is it as natural or as good for the roaches as animal, No. However the Chameleon suffers from roaches that indulge animal protein. If you have Pet Roaches, that will never be fed, they should probably be fed animal proteins, however if the goal is to feed the Cham, then its best to avoid.

Its a difference, of health of the Roach Vs Health of the Animal that is eating the roach.

Hope this helps .

 

[Christel]

Awesome info, thanks!

 

[JacksJill]

Did you ever say what kind of chameleon you have? Different species have different requirements.

 

[kinyonga]

One other comment on fish food as a gutload...it has prEformed vitamin A...just like dog food and cat food and any other product containing meat or meat byproducts. So like vitamins that contain prEformed sources of vitamin A, you have to be careful not to overdose the chameleon.

 

[Christel]

Do you mean wax worms , or butter worms ?? Are you thinking more specific ?

Hi Christel
Have a listen to this episode on the podcast about gutloading feeders ! I find it very helpful!
https://www.chameleonbreeder.com/podcast/gutloading-chameleon-feeders/
I also feed meal worms as well as black soldier flies, crickets,dubia,red runners, wax worm, super, and silkworms. They get oats, milk powder, bee pollen( or I also dust it on the feeder before I fed them to the cham), pumpkin,sweet potato, carat, papaya, and whatever good veggies or fruits that’s leftover from the kitchen.
The good thing with the worms is that if the chams don’t finish them as worms, mine also eat them as beetles and moths or flies. Right now they love wax moths and soldier flies. I hand feed both but left the soldier fly pupae in the cage so they have fresh flies everyday in the cage to hunt
View attachment 258980View attachment 258981

Did you ever say what kind of chameleon you have? Different species have different requirements.

My bad, I guess I'd thought my avatar showed her .
She is a veiled.

 

[Christel]

I shot this yesterday; I told her ya'll needed a picture, as she usually hates the cellphone, LoL!