Jacksonii Jacksonii giving birth to un-formed babies

JacksJill said:
I don't know why she is passing these feti prematurely. I have never seen this happen.
@Kaizen @leedragon
If they don't have any info you can try the facebook group Jackson's chameleon community there are breeders there.
Click to expand...
Sorry I don´t have a proper answer. I would be guessing it´s due stress, those doesn´t like real slugs.

Something that can be compared to this has happen to me. They didn´t look like this ones thou but one of my females poop looked to contain a chameleon curled tail, several dooses like that. I am still to this day unsure if it was just peculiar shaped poop or unfinnished developed jackson noenates.
 
Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon - Female Jacksonii Jacksonii, unsure on age, she's been with us since Dec. 23, 2020
  • Handling - Once/twice a week only if she steps out to us. Most handling takes place when we are cleaning cage. She was handled often at the feed store we bought her from.
  • Feeding - crickets, waxworms, calciworms, gut loading with carrot slices and apples. ***She has not been eating regularly since a week after we brought her home. She's only eaten about 40 crickets and 5 waxworms in this time period.
  • Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? Repticalcium w/o Vit. D and Reptivite with Vit. D. ***I do not believe she was given supplements at the store, as they did not discuss this with me. She has not had much as far as supplements go since she isn't really eating regularly. However, my schedule is calcium dusting every feeding, and twice a month for the Reptivite.
  • Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking? She drinks from the dripper twice/day and gets hand misted 3-4x a day. I have not seen her drink from the misting, she prefers to drink from the dripper.
  • Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? Most recent are hard, dark poos with white urates. She has not been tested for parasites.
  • History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. I was told she was a 3 month old male Jackson's. She was in the "kit" cage at the store no extra lighting, no dripper or mister and only the fogger on all day.
Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? Medium sized screen cage from the kit.
  • Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? The dome lighting from the kit and a 22" t5HO linear bulb for UVB. Basking bulb off to the side.
  • Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps? 68° to 78° during the day, 60°-65° during the night. Measured with a digital thermometer
  • Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? 40-50% during the day, 70-100% at night, measured with analog dial
  • Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? Live umbrella plant and peperomia, also fake ivy vine for coverage
  • Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? Cage is its own room upstairs next to a window. Not near a vent or fan, and not a high traffic area. Top of cage hits about 5'.
  • Location - Where are you geographically located? Located in southwest Idaho.
Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.
She expelled two feti and a slug yesterday morning. Nothing since. She hasn't taken food for 8 days. She is drinking small amount of water in the morning. She is very stressed and dark. I'm scared she might be bound up inside. She was healthy looking and green 3 days ago. This happened very quickly.
--------------

Please Note:
  1. The more details you provide the better and more accurate help you will receive.
  2. Photos can be very helpful
 

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KittyD75 said:
Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon - Female Jacksonii Jacksonii, unsure on age, she's been with us since Dec. 23, 2020
  • Handling - Once/twice a week only if she steps out to us. Most handling takes place when we are cleaning cage. She was handled often at the feed store we bought her from.
  • Feeding - crickets, waxworms, calciworms, gut loading with carrot slices and apples. ***She has not been eating regularly since a week after we brought her home. She's only eaten about 40 crickets and 5 waxworms in this time period.
  • Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? Repticalcium w/o Vit. D and Reptivite with Vit. D. ***I do not believe she was given supplements at the store, as they did not discuss this with me. She has not had much as far as supplements go since she isn't really eating regularly. However, my schedule is calcium dusting every feeding, and twice a month for the Reptivite.
  • Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking? She drinks from the dripper twice/day and gets hand misted 3-4x a day. I have not seen her drink from the misting, she prefers to drink from the dripper.
  • Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? Most recent are hard, dark poos with white urates. She has not been tested for parasites.
  • History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. I was told she was a 3 month old male Jackson's. She was in the "kit" cage at the store no extra lighting, no dripper or mister and only the fogger on all day.
Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? Medium sized screen cage from the kit.
  • Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? The dome lighting from the kit and a 22" t5HO linear bulb for UVB. Basking bulb off to the side.
  • Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps? 68° to 78° during the day, 60°-65° during the night. Measured with a digital thermometer
  • Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? 40-50% during the day, 70-100% at night, measured with analog dial
  • Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? Live umbrella plant and peperomia, also fake ivy vine for coverage
  • Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? Cage is its own room upstairs next to a window. Not near a vent or fan, and not a high traffic area. Top of cage hits about 5'.
  • Location - Where are you geographically located? Located in southwest Idaho.
Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.
She expelled two feti and a slug yesterday morning. Nothing since. She hasn't taken food for 8 days. She is drinking small amount of water in the morning. She is very stressed and dark. I'm scared she might be bound up inside. She was healthy looking and green 3 days ago. This happened very quickly.
--------------

Please Note:
  1. The more details you provide the better and more accurate help you will receive.
  2. Photos can be very helpful
Click to expand...
So, I’ll go over your husbandry later this evening, but I’d like to offer what are admittedly intuitions/guesses. I am not a vet, and I have no scientific basis for this, other than my own reasoning.

1) Your female has too many young to support and is “making room”
2) Your female was not supplement Ed correctly before you got her, and this resulted in fetuses that are underdeveloped or otherwise no viable.
3) There is documentation of female xantholophus being able to hold on to their clutches until conditions are favourable for survival (see Tilbury in The Chameleons of Africa: An Atlas...). Perhaps it could work the other way around too: if conditions seem unfavourable for the maturation of the fetuses, the female may expel them.
4) These could just be aberrant fetuses, and the rest might be ok.
5) Low level MBD and genetic problems resulting from a small gene pool has been noted for Hawaiian xantholophus. Both could be at issue.

I’d like to direct you to both The Chameleon Academy website:
https://chameleonacademy.com/trioceros-jacksonii-breeding-jacksons-chameleons/

And the following pages from Kaizenchameleons.com:

For better gutloading practices than you mention, see:

https://www.kaizenchameleons.com/gutloading

for information on feeders, see:

https://www.kaizenchameleons.com/feeder-insects

for species information on how I keep my xantholophus, see:

https://www.kaizenchameleons.com/about-3

For discussion of hydration techniques different from what you’re doing see:

https://www.kaizenchameleons.com/hydration

And for several different supplementation regimes, see:

https://www.kaizenchameleons.com/supplementation-schedules
 
Your housbandry seem to be alright. Try feeding walking sticks and bottle flies. You need to improve your gutload look up sandrachameleons blog here on the page for that. Also give her vitamin a in oil form once a month. Just a few drops on a couple of feeders, this should not be oversuplemented due it´s builds up like d3 in the organs but the animals tend to need it once in a while.
 
KittyD75 said:
Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon - Female Jacksonii Jacksonii, unsure on age, she's been with us since Dec. 23, 2020
  • Handling - Once/twice a week only if she steps out to us. Most handling takes place when we are cleaning cage. She was handled often at the feed store we bought her from.
  • Feeding - crickets, waxworms, calciworms, gut loading with carrot slices and apples. ***She has not been eating regularly since a week after we brought her home. She's only eaten about 40 crickets and 5 waxworms in this time period.
  • Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? Repticalcium w/o Vit. D and Reptivite with Vit. D. ***I do not believe she was given supplements at the store, as they did not discuss this with me. She has not had much as far as supplements go since she isn't really eating regularly. However, my schedule is calcium dusting every feeding, and twice a month for the Reptivite.
  • Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking? She drinks from the dripper twice/day and gets hand misted 3-4x a day. I have not seen her drink from the misting, she prefers to drink from the dripper.
  • Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? Most recent are hard, dark poos with white urates. She has not been tested for parasites.
  • History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. I was told she was a 3 month old male Jackson's. She was in the "kit" cage at the store no extra lighting, no dripper or mister and only the fogger on all day.
Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? Medium sized screen cage from the kit.
  • Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? The dome lighting from the kit and a 22" t5HO linear bulb for UVB. Basking bulb off to the side.
  • Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps? 68° to 78° during the day, 60°-65° during the night. Measured with a digital thermometer
  • Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? 40-50% during the day, 70-100% at night, measured with analog dial
  • Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? Live umbrella plant and peperomia, also fake ivy vine for coverage
  • Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? Cage is its own room upstairs next to a window. Not near a vent or fan, and not a high traffic area. Top of cage hits about 5'.
  • Location - Where are you geographically located? Located in southwest Idaho.
Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.
She expelled two feti and a slug yesterday morning. Nothing since. She hasn't taken food for 8 days. She is drinking small amount of water in the morning. She is very stressed and dark. I'm scared she might be bound up inside. She was healthy looking and green 3 days ago. This happened very quickly.
--------------

Please Note:
  1. The more details you provide the better and more accurate help you will receive.
  2. Photos can be very helpful
Click to expand...
adda lot more plants, that is waaay to few btw.
 
leedragon said:
Your housbandry seem to be alright. Try feeding walking sticks and bottle flies. You need to improve your gutload look up sandrachameleons blog here on the page for that. Also give her vitamin a in oil form once a month. Just a few drops on a couple of feeders, this should not be oversuplemented due it´s builds up like d3 in the organs but the animals tend to need it once in a while.
Click to expand...
Any tips on how I can get her to eat anything at all right now? I have fruitflies in preparation for the babies. Is that ok to try?
 
leedragon said:
adda lot more plants, that is waaay to few btw.
Click to expand...
Yes! Not too much to choose from right now in Idaho. I plan to take out the fake ones all together and have all live plants. Once the stores start carrying the right variates, assuming she's still alive :(
 
She looks pretty big. If she is so full of babies that some are slipping out early then she likely has no room for food. They don't have a diaphragm like we do so too much in their abdomen encroaches on their lungs. That's why heavily pregnant females spend more time head up on vertical branches.
If you offer her any normal feeders only offer one and keep to the small ones lightly dust with plain calcium. Only give D3 if she hasn't had it in a month.
 
JacksJill said:
She looks pretty big. If she is so full of babies that some are slipping out early then she likely has no room for food. They don't have a diaphragm like we do so too much in their abdomen encroaches on their lungs. That's why heavily pregnant females spend more time head up on vertical branches.
If you offer her any normal feeders only offer one and keep to the small ones lightly dust with plain calcium. Only give D3 if she hasn't had it in a month.
Click to expand...
She hasn't eaten anything for 9 days. How long can she go?
 
KittyD75 said:
She survived the night, took a small sip of water this morning and is not as dark as she was last night. I'm just going to leave her alone and give her some space today.

Kinda freaked out none of you with experience have seen this before. I'll be calling a vet tomorrow and will fill out the help form. Thanks
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Would the vet be able to ultrasound? would need really sensitive stethoscope to detect heartbeats in these little guys, I'm sure i read they develop in soft eggs inside incubated then hatch also inside over 4-6months. I know they x-ray Oviparous chameleons if there is eggbinding but not sure of the safety in this case
You'll need plenty of small feeders fruit fly cultures &breeding pinhead crickets etc. . or a constant supply of not, to mention a separate enclosure /boxes with a uvb tube and a mini scaffolding. Could be alot of work for you would you take on the brood? bet this was last thing you was expecting acquiring what you thought was a male Jackson's
Btw Jacksons baby chameleons are the cutest by far 🤩
 
Pickle-cham said:
Would the vet be able to ultrasound? would need really sensitive stethoscope to detect heartbeats in these little guys, I'm sure i read they develop in soft eggs inside incubated then hatch also inside over 4-6months. I know they x-ray Oviparous chameleons if there is eggbinding but not sure of the safety in this case
You'll need plenty of small feeders fruit fly cultures &breeding pinhead crickets etc. . or a constant supply of not, to mention a separate enclosure /boxes with a uvb tube and a mini scaffolding. Could be alot of work for you would you take on the brood? bet this was last thing you was expecting acquiring what you thought was a male Jackson's
Btw Jacksons baby chameleons are the cutest by far 🤩
Click to expand...
No, that is too much stress for a pregnad female and the neonates. If she is about to dropp only water and privacy is needed right now.
 
leedragon said:
No, that is too much stress for a pregnad female and the neonates. If she is about to dropp only water and privacy is needed right now.
Click to expand...
Would you advise what op would needs for the newborns? they bought what they thought was a male so wasn't expecting this. I've heard to use a older uv bulb so not to burn eyes & no basking lamp because little bodies dehydrate easily but I'm sure there's lots more,, can they stay in with the mother for any length of time?.
 
Pickle-cham said:
Would you advise what op would needs for the newborns? they bought what they thought was a male so wasn't expecting this. I've heard to use a older uv bulb so not to burn eyes & no basking lamp because little bodies dehydrate easily but I'm sure there's lots more,, can they stay in with the mother for any length of time?.
Click to expand...
Raise them individually. Uvi of 3-5, no basking, nightime drops below 59 (preferably below 52). Daytime temps in the mid 70s. That’s how I raise mine.
 
Pickle-cham said:
Would you advise what op would needs for the newborns? they bought what they thought was a male so wasn't expecting this. I've heard to use a older uv bulb so not to burn eyes & no basking lamp because little bodies dehydrate easily but I'm sure there's lots more,, can they stay in with the mother for any length of time?.
Click to expand...
I do not know what lamps are good now days, breed fruit flies, have like 5 kultures on line right away to rotate in between. Keep one going and 4 on cold so they don´t runt out in the mean while. pinhead crickets, bean beatles. A vitamin in oil form once month like a drop to each. temps should be lower like 23-25 for babies. foliage, they need to get away from the light otherwise they get eye problems. I recomend not to keep them in tubes which reflect alot of the light due their eyes being sensitive, but thats just me. I like this instruction although some of that have now been challange I think it can be followed for the most part, just have the humidity thing as fod a night and drier at day, spray their cage like 3 times a day.
 
Not eating doesn’t bother me as much as not drinking. As long as she is drinking I’d be happy. Most females go off food when getting ready to lay eggs/ give birth so I wouldn’t be worried for the time being. Just offer her lots of water and a couple of food items just in case she wants to snag one.

I’ve had to cover the sides of cages with dark plastic to give more privacy. This may be an option for you ever though the enclosure is in a low traffic area
 
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