Jacksonii xanth female giving birth right now!
- Thread starter Sepioteuthis
- Start date
xanthoman
Avid Member
there was something definitely amiss about their development, but who is to say what ? it could be so many things , i kind of doubt it had to do with a move unless it temps got way out of line, so i am guessing it was something rooted in their longer term development (like a nutritional thing or some long term enviromental thing ),a gravid xanth can deal with some fairly rough treatment, mine must have taken at least a 1/2 dozen really nasty falls in the weeks before giving birth. fairly healthy xanth neonates should be exploring within minutes and look like relatively normal (proportionately speaking ) full size chams ,i had a clutch of 15 xanths about a month ago and one had zero strength and died about 4 hrs later, the only thing that kept me from taking it too hard, was i still had 14 healthy ones , even the runt that i was previously concerened about is now doing well. if i had lost the entire clutch , i would have been devastated.
Sepioteuthis
New Member
Well, that's the trick isn't it. Obviously something went wrong, but what I don't know. Hopefully the conclusion of Mara's pregnancy will give some indications. If she gives birth prematurely too, than it's more likely that there is a nutritional problem.
Are your babies CB or CH? How much do you supplement the female?
Are your babies CB or CH? How much do you supplement the female?
xanthoman
Avid Member
just in case you wanted to compare regimens i used ;rep cal no d3, 2x week ,with d3 once or twice a week depending on how much sun they got. i try to get the each at least a couple of hrs sun a week. reptivite once every six weeks and miner-all every six weeks but i keep them staggered 3 wks apart , dubia is my main staple with mail order cricks bb,flies and the ocassional horn or zebra worm , gutload mainly with cale , collard greens, a few basic veggies, a few flukers oc and always a few grains of bee pollen. / and short of drowning them , i dont think its possible to over hydrate jackson's , i think one of the reasons jacksons have a rep of being one of the harder species to keep is because many of their keepers do not keep them hydrated enough. maybe its an issue of long term, but ever so slight dehydration, man they can go through a lot of water. also the problem is not neccessarily under supplemetation , as i understand it, over supplementation of preformed vitamin a could inhibit the utilization of d 3 , which could in turn cause a lack of skeletal development in the neonates, causing the disproprtionate body size, i think the lack of lower body devlopement is indicative of some manifestation of d3 deficiency, a better time line from the time of conception might help determine if it was nutritional or not (if the gestation went near full term then it was almost certainly nutritional) if they clearly didnt go full term, then the nutritional thing could have been right on the money, and that could have happened for something other than nutritional, anyway , just my 2c worth, hope it gives you some ideas
ciafardo 4
New Member
SO SORRY ! I had this very same thing happen last summer to a female xantholophus that was gravid when i got her. It's worse then a punch in the gut it just made me sick all day.Good luck with the second female !
Sepioteuthis
New Member
Xanthoman: thanks for posting that. Your supplementation schedule is similar to mine. I dust with just Ca about 2 times a week, Ca/D3 once a week and reptivite once a month.
And I hydrate the heck out of all my chams. They get an average of 40 min of misting every day.
Mine don't get a lot of natural sunlight, though and I did notice the other day that the ficus in Jade's cage is shading off most of the UV-B light. So that might be a red flag.
Jade gave birth almost exactly 6 months after mating, so I think they were pretty close to full term.
Ciafardo: Thanks. I'm pretty much living with with my fingers crossed now for the second female (really messes with my typing skills...
).
I really don't want to go through this again.
And I hydrate the heck out of all my chams. They get an average of 40 min of misting every day.
Mine don't get a lot of natural sunlight, though and I did notice the other day that the ficus in Jade's cage is shading off most of the UV-B light. So that might be a red flag.
Jade gave birth almost exactly 6 months after mating, so I think they were pretty close to full term.
Ciafardo: Thanks. I'm pretty much living with with my fingers crossed now for the second female (really messes with my typing skills...
). I really don't want to go through this again.
Sepioteuthis
New Member
So Jade is turning out to not be doing so well afterall.
I took her to the vet today because she's stopped using her left hind leg. The vet drew some blood, but couldn't get enough to do any tests in-house, so had to send it out for the chem panel. Looks like she might have a bit of Ca deficiency. Vet also cut open a bump on her tail, which turned out to be filled with puss. No idea why she would have an infection there, though.
Anyway, it's looking like the premature birth might have been a Jade-specific thing, which is hopeful for my other female, Mara.
Mara has now been gravid for 2 days longer than Jade's gestation was. And she seems stronger than Jade did in the last week.
The saga continues...
I took her to the vet today because she's stopped using her left hind leg. The vet drew some blood, but couldn't get enough to do any tests in-house, so had to send it out for the chem panel. Looks like she might have a bit of Ca deficiency. Vet also cut open a bump on her tail, which turned out to be filled with puss. No idea why she would have an infection there, though.
Anyway, it's looking like the premature birth might have been a Jade-specific thing, which is hopeful for my other female, Mara.
Mara has now been gravid for 2 days longer than Jade's gestation was. And she seems stronger than Jade did in the last week.
The saga continues...
chameleonman57
New Member
Sorry to hear that happened to you, don't feel bad it happens in nature all the time. Glad to hear your cham is doing better.
xanthoman
Avid Member
i bet that is part of the equasion , because i did get her at least 1/2-1 hr of sun a week in the last 6 weeks of her term . she is looking good, but still real unsteady on her feet, maybe placing a uv vertically might help, so that she has less of an option to escape the uv, or maybe a couple of doses of liquid calcium, anyway hope things go better this time, im sure everyone will be anxiously awaiting your posts, but if you feel i can help in any way (and i miss your posts), you are always welcome to vm, pm, or email, / by the way, cool avatar (but your last one was cooler)
Sepioteuthis
New Member
She's getting some liquid Ca now and more outside time. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks for the compliment about my avatar - that octopus was awesome. His name was Phoenix and he would eat out of your hand.
BTW which avatar was better (I can never remember my old avatars)?
Sepioteuthis
New Member
Update: bloodwork shows elevated white blood cell count and confirmed the Ca deficiency. Jade is now on Batryl and liquid Ca.
Since Jade got gular edema a few times when she was gravid, Dr. Crum thinks her kidneys might be compromised. To help with this he recommended also giving her a little bit of Omega 3 fatty acids (in the form of flaxseed extract) everyday.
And now I gotta roll - going to visit my sister-in-law who had twins yesterday. On my birthday!
Since Jade got gular edema a few times when she was gravid, Dr. Crum thinks her kidneys might be compromised. To help with this he recommended also giving her a little bit of Omega 3 fatty acids (in the form of flaxseed extract) everyday.
And now I gotta roll - going to visit my sister-in-law who had twins yesterday. On my birthday!
Sepioteuthis
New Member
And yet another update:
The 2nd female Mara gave birth today. Unfortunately I wasn't there when it happened.
She delivered 11 babies and 15 slugs. Two babies were still born, seven were able to break free of the egg membrane on their own, but all are still carrying some yolk around.
4 or 5 of the babies look pretty good and I'm hoping that they have a change. Right now they are sitting in a tub on a damp paper towel and, hopefully absorbing the rest of their yolk.
So fingers crossed once again.
BTW Mara's gestation was about 1 week longer than Jade's.
The 2nd female Mara gave birth today. Unfortunately I wasn't there when it happened.
She delivered 11 babies and 15 slugs. Two babies were still born, seven were able to break free of the egg membrane on their own, but all are still carrying some yolk around.
4 or 5 of the babies look pretty good and I'm hoping that they have a change. Right now they are sitting in a tub on a damp paper towel and, hopefully absorbing the rest of their yolk.
So fingers crossed once again.
BTW Mara's gestation was about 1 week longer than Jade's.
Sepioteuthis
New Member
8 of the ten babies are still alive, but all are still weak and only 2 have broken free of their yolk sacs.
Also at least 3 of the babies have a cleft lip. Has anyone seen that before?
Also at least 3 of the babies have a cleft lip. Has anyone seen that before?
xanthoman
Avid Member
can u post any updated pics? , by the time they are born, the yolk sack should be almost non existent. since our regimens are similar , this whole thing has me wondering if i should change my regimen ? and the cleft lip thing, who knows , it could be a lighting or supplemental deficency, but it could also be a genetic deficiency ?, or even possibly being in a poor fetal position during the latter part of the term ? ( i know, none of that helped much)
Sepioteuthis
New Member
Actually I'm now thinking that water quality may play a role. I mist my chams with water straight from the tap and I just read that in humans chlorine can increase the risks of birth defects such as cleft lip/palate. When I had our water tested chlorine levels were relatively low, so I figured it would be fine, but water quality can fluctuate.
Then again apparently that are many environmental factors that can cause cleft lips and it can also be genetic.
I'm definitely going to make some changes before trying this again.
Then again apparently that are many environmental factors that can cause cleft lips and it can also be genetic.
I'm definitely going to make some changes before trying this again.
xanthoman
Avid Member
thats something we do different, it may not be much better, but i use brita for my misting and drinking water, and plus we have better than average water quality up here to start with, also begs the following two questions ; do you use warm misting water ? and if so, how do you warm it ? please tell me that you dont use warm water from the tap? i would consider that a definite not good, even relatively new hot water tanks have in the bottom at least a couple inches of the nastiest, smelliest sludge you can imagine, sort of like smelly swamp sludge that has died, i dont know what its composed of (i would imagine sedimentary stuff and sulfer) but whatever it is, it cant be healthy, / edit / chlorine dissipates fairly rapidly, most is gone within 24hrs, so if your water sits for any length of time, its probably not the issue /edit/ lately i have begun to question the d3 part of my regimen (in terms of possible over use) not saying that is part of your issue
Sepioteuthis
New Member
I mist with cold water and I've never had a cham that had a problem with that. And my misting system is directly plumbed into our bathroom faucet so the water doesn't sit out at all.
(BTW the still surviving babies get misted with distilled water now)
(BTW the still surviving babies get misted with distilled water now)
Sepioteuthis
New Member
Well, 4 babies made it through the night. They still seem weak, though.
One baby is clearly doing better then the rest and, surprisingly, this is one of the cleft lip babies.
Well, I've misted them and threw in some fruit flies and now I'm off to work. Hopefully they'll still be there when I get back.
One baby is clearly doing better then the rest and, surprisingly, this is one of the cleft lip babies.
Well, I've misted them and threw in some fruit flies and now I'm off to work. Hopefully they'll still be there when I get back.
merumontanus
Avid Member
Suzanne,
Thanks for posting the updates-- somehow I missed them until now. Do you have any photos of the "cleft-lip" neonates?
Water may certainly be an issue here, but I suspect it has more to with other metabolic implications, including diet, supplementation, D3 synthesis (which, as you know, takes into account dietetic D3, lighting, vitamin A, etc) or a combination of all. The fact that livebearers are so difficult to get past the second generation is no coincidence-- we are lacking something in our management.
The issue of water quality may shed some light into this, but may also complicate things a bit as so much of our water already contains naturally-occurring (as well as added) minerals, such as calcium, magnesium and sodium. Distilled water, for example, lacks all of these almost in their entirety, which makes this water very "pure", much like deionized water-- in fact too pure for biological processes.
I would consider using a Reverse Osmosis system if you think your water is the culprit as it does not distill the water by evaporation, but rather filters out excessive minerals found in very hard water. Many still consider R/O water to be less ideal than potable water (low pH), but I suppose that may be more manageable than extremely hard tap water.
Is there a way you could test your water's hardness and pH? Here's a map of the U.S. indicating water hardness:
U.S. Geological Survey's Hardness and Alkalinity Map
You're in a particularly fortunate position given your work as a marine biologist, so I'll be watching this thread closely. Keep us posted on the progress of the remaining neonates...
Cheers,
Fabián
Thanks for posting the updates-- somehow I missed them until now. Do you have any photos of the "cleft-lip" neonates?
Water may certainly be an issue here, but I suspect it has more to with other metabolic implications, including diet, supplementation, D3 synthesis (which, as you know, takes into account dietetic D3, lighting, vitamin A, etc) or a combination of all. The fact that livebearers are so difficult to get past the second generation is no coincidence-- we are lacking something in our management.
The issue of water quality may shed some light into this, but may also complicate things a bit as so much of our water already contains naturally-occurring (as well as added) minerals, such as calcium, magnesium and sodium. Distilled water, for example, lacks all of these almost in their entirety, which makes this water very "pure", much like deionized water-- in fact too pure for biological processes.
I would consider using a Reverse Osmosis system if you think your water is the culprit as it does not distill the water by evaporation, but rather filters out excessive minerals found in very hard water. Many still consider R/O water to be less ideal than potable water (low pH), but I suppose that may be more manageable than extremely hard tap water.
Is there a way you could test your water's hardness and pH? Here's a map of the U.S. indicating water hardness:
U.S. Geological Survey's Hardness and Alkalinity Map
You're in a particularly fortunate position given your work as a marine biologist, so I'll be watching this thread closely. Keep us posted on the progress of the remaining neonates...
Cheers,
Fabián
Sepioteuthis
New Member
I don't have any good pictures of the cleft lip babies yet, but I'll post them once I do have some.
Yes, I'm aware of the lack of minerals being a downside of distilled water, and I was always taught to not drink distilled water, however I can't find any real scientific proof that it has any negative effects.
We're considering an RO system, but installing it into our misting system will take some creative thinking. In the meantime I just really don't want to use my tapwater.
I don't know the pH of our tapwater (will look of a test kit), but the hardness is moderate. The hardness is not something that I'm worried about though, it's more what else might be in the water.
But you're right, it could also be something dietary. I've never been good about using strict supplementation and feeding schedules, so maybe my methods just aren't good enough for gravid females.
I am definitely going to make adjustments to various aspects of my husbandry before I breed these girls again.
Oh and my background in marine biology isn't helping much here, water quality has never been something I've focused on. I'm more of an animal behavior / population dynamics kinda person.
Yes, I'm aware of the lack of minerals being a downside of distilled water, and I was always taught to not drink distilled water, however I can't find any real scientific proof that it has any negative effects.
We're considering an RO system, but installing it into our misting system will take some creative thinking. In the meantime I just really don't want to use my tapwater.
I don't know the pH of our tapwater (will look of a test kit), but the hardness is moderate. The hardness is not something that I'm worried about though, it's more what else might be in the water.
But you're right, it could also be something dietary. I've never been good about using strict supplementation and feeding schedules, so maybe my methods just aren't good enough for gravid females.
I am definitely going to make adjustments to various aspects of my husbandry before I breed these girls again.
Oh and my background in marine biology isn't helping much here, water quality has never been something I've focused on. I'm more of an animal behavior / population dynamics kinda person.
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