Juvenile Veiled Color?????

[Julirs]

OK-I apologize for that. I do think you have me and this whole forum of people pegged wrong. Courtney-all of my animals are raised right here in my home as pets. I raise a clutch a year (plus year round pygmies) on my dining room table. I do not sell to pet stores due to the ignorance I find in most of them. Many forum members here have Veileds that I hatched. I do love to show them off-they are beautiful and fascinating creatures. I help people here all of the time. I do talk to my chams, I have one that I swear loves my husband. They are extremely well cared for and loved. Truth is-they are solitary, territorial, and often aggressive. They love me because I have food. They do not behave like Dogs or Cats (My Great Dane swears he is human.) I have a great Vet, and keep the company of some of the most knowledgeable people that keep chams, and a few of them are indeed Biologists (I have that degree) that have studied in the field. Again, I am sorry that this morning i was a bit grumpy, but I was trying to help and stating facts. I hope you stick around and learn alot from this community, and I wish all the best for your chams.

 

[Courtney]

haha

see if u didnt beleave they have feelings you wouldnt beleave one loved ur husband. we all get grumpy we all get defensiva and we all act a lil childis sometimes but so do our pets so its ok. i wasnt trying to prove anyone wron i was shareing my experience with a special cham who is no longer with us. i didnt ask to be told i was worng about an intelligent connection with an animal. it is ok to admit that chams are becoming more domesticated as far as reactions to their care takers...

 

[Chris Anderson]

Courtney,

Unfortunately your posts are so incoherent that I have difficulty following any of your logic. It seems that your intentions are good but that you are incredibly naive and extremely misinformed.

First, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about scientific research, what different types of research show us, what research has been conducted and how to find it. As much as you want to claim that we don't exist, as a herpetologist who studies chameleons every day and has studied them in the wild, I can tell you that there is a lot of information available about chameleon behavior, ecology, etc. There is always more research to be conducted (there always will be on any species) but there is a good amount available on chameleons that have been studied in the wild. You don't need to follow a single individual around for its entire life to answer relevant questions about these topics. These questions are accurately addressed by a number of different means and there is a good amount of research published on the topics.

Anthropomorphizing pets is common and not always bad. Unfortunately if you do it too much (as you are doing) you lose sight of reality and fail to associate behaviors, etc., with their actual cause. Chameleons are not your typical social mammals and are not responding to stimuli in the same way as a social mammal does. Not recognizing their natural instincts and failing to analyze their behavior in light of their social structure, place on the food chain, ecology, etc., is bound to result in incorrect assumptions about the animal that could result in failure to treat an illness or husbandry issue. You claim that people that don't unrealistically anthropomorphize their chameleons don't deserve to work with them but I would argue that people that do endanger them because they fail to interpret them correctly.

You stated "so to say dont handle dont house together dont dont dont.....we will never know untill we try." Unfortunately the reason we say this is because many people have tried many times and more often then not, it does not work. You also said "there is way too much infor out there that tells people what not to do..where is the info on what to do?????????" What you're failing to realize is that they are one in the same thing. This info is based on experience. You're refusing to realize that the information given on what not to do is in sound information and all you have to do to determine what to do is follow that advice.

You claimed that stress is an emotional reaction. Unfortunately in the case of chameleons, this is not exactly the complete picture. Stress is a physiological response to stimuli that results in changes in hormone levels and body functions. They are often not based on emotion at all.

Finally, you should probably look up the word "domesticated." Chameleons are far from domesticated or from becoming domesticated. They are wild animals, plain and simple.

Chris

 

[jessica]

Wow well put! I was just going to say that it seems courtney you are misunderstanding toleration for love. I would love to say my Ernie loves me because he dosent want food from any of my family members but when it boils down to it Ernie tolerates me more then any one else. Although love is a cuter word then tolerates

 

[Courtney]

i agree and i disagree. to say a chameleon only tolerates is far from the truth and you are taking my opinion way out of context. i didnt say that there wasnt anyone doing research on wild chams i asked where is the info on it. i have studied and read everything i could find in the library,internet..talked with people who keep them to observe and breeders. my first cham a senegal which i couldnt find any info on him except drab pics on line and was told he would be difficult to care for. he turned out to be an amazing intelligent little guy.. and his intelligence didnt come from repititious behavior and environment. andincase anyone elses carres turns out my male was too warm. at this time i dont see any reason to seperate a pair who sleep side by side and get along perfectly. most of you probably hate me because im not afaid to voice my opinion and ask questions and defend my reason on beleaving that chams are alot smarter and expressive than we think they are. try not looking at them as a science project and a living breathng being with thoughts and emotions. you may be suprised. im not even angry to hear or read rather you defending yourself when u just assumed i directed it at you specifically and since you replied as such you must be feeling guilty about your "hobby"

 

[jojackson]

andincase anyone elses carres turns out my male was too warm.

And hence, stressed. This might have been spotted had you posted any useful information about your lizards/setup. We are not phsycic and we dont guess Courtney.
Your lizards may well be fine together,NOW, but I forsee many issues ahead for you due to your close minded attitude, not the least of which may be multiple clutches from the female (assuming they live that long) resulting in its early death, if stress dosent do them first.
Good luck in the future.

 

[Chris Anderson]

i didnt say that there wasnt anyone doing research on wild chams i asked where is the info on it.

Actually that's exactly what you said:

after all its not like anyone studies them in the wild and actually documents the activities of a single cham the way they do other animals.

As for where to find them, you need to actually do some research. Buy books like Petr Necas' book. After you've read the book, look through the bibliography and find those sources and do the same for those sources. You can also look in scientific journals such as Tropical Zoology, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Journal of Experimental Zoology, Journal of Experimental Biology, Animal Biodiversity and Conservation, Herpetological Journal, Journal of Herpetology, Journal of Thermal Biology, Copeia, Journal of Zoology, Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, African Journal of Herpetology, etc. Its amazing how many things you can find if you actually bother to look for them.

try not looking at them as a science project and a living breathng being with thoughts and emotions. you may be suprised.

So before you claimed no one knew what they were talking about because no one is doing the research on them and now that you've been corrected on that, its because we are looking at them from a scientific perspective? I think you need to make up your mind...

im not even angry to hear or read rather you defending yourself when u just assumed i directed it at you specifically and since you replied as such you must be feeling guilty about your "hobby"

Not sure what you think I have to feel guilty about. I'm not the one that makes excuses about how any of my animals do for me or refuses to consider each of their behavior in relation to their natural history and behavior.

Chris

 

[kirmit]

you wouldnt know if my chameleon died from a broken heart unless you knew him. and unless you are an expert on his species..which i have found none...you would have some insight as to how intellegent he was. being the only pet in my house with very limited interaction with strange people. he knew he was a part of the family my mom would get home at sunrise turn on his lights give him breakfast and sing to him...if she didnt he would turn his back to her and anyone else for a few hours...by dinner he was back to normal stuff like that i cherish and miss .Otis will be forever be special its a shame i never got to introduce him to any of you. you may be judging a book by its cover. i may be young have only kept one cham but that is only b/c i waited a long time doing research andmaking sure i couldtake care of one properly. he had regular vet exams with a cham vet. i even had to force feed him several times once when my ex and i split and after 2 weeks he freaked out cause someone disapeared and never came back he was overly sensitive. i dont know why im explaining myself or otis' behavior to u . u care for ur chams like you do children same with dogs or any other pet dont you beleave they care for us...if not ur stupid and dont deserve the gift for careing for another living thing human animal or plant ...ur no better than the puppy mill breeders....just trying to earn a dollar huh???? if chams cant die of a broken heart and i trust u have factual evidence that they cant then u must still beleave they only change color to blend with the surroundings....funny they show their feeling through their colors...so if they can show feeling through colors dont they have the ability to feel thus have emotions.....

I totally get were your coming from. iv only have mine for about 6 or 7 months now and my cham acts like yours did in a way... chameleons are smart and they do know who there owner is. so you would only think they would get accustomed

 

[WelshOneEmma]

I totally get were your coming from. iv only have mine for about 6 or 7 months now and my cham acts like yours did in a way... chameleons are smart and they do know who there owner is. so you would only think they would get accustomed

I have had my chameleon for 8 months now, and yes, he recognises me. He recognises that I am the one who mists him, and brings him food. Would still bite my face off given the chance. All chams are different, some may tolerate more than others. Tiff (MissLily) seems to find chams that will happily sit on her and have their picture taken. As much as i would like to think that Hugo has these emotions, I don't think he does. He is not handled because its stresses him out - surely this indicates that he does not want these associated 'emotions'.

People come here for advice, which is given. EVERY chameleon book I have read says don't house them together. If people don't want to take the advice given by all these members with years of experience, then fine (i do feel sorry for the chams) but then don't complain when something happens because you won't listen to the advice given.

 

[Eyal]

Dont know what to say here. Chris said it all! Trust him.

 

[Goggles]

"so to say dont handle dont house together dont dont dont.....we will never know untill we try. "

is this not a version of your own science experiment?

"try not looking at them as a science project and a living breathng being with thoughts and emotions."

You should take your own advise and listen to someone like Chris, who has experience, before your "experiment" becomes detrimental to your chameleon.

 

[jamncristian]

go to this website click on tutorials and click on cohabitation and read the story
http://melleridiscovery.com/index.html

 

[Julirs]

Mellers are one of the few species that sometimes peacefully cohabitate. The article does give good examples on what to look for and the dangers of keeping chams together.

Note: I have Mellers that will NOT cohabitate. One is terrified of the other and gets highly stressed. Mellers also die easily from stress.

 

[jamncristian]

i am not saying all chams will peacefully cohabitate

i am just noting that chams have probably have feelings and can feel longing their keeper or another cham

but it usually not likley

 

[Julirs]

Let me throw this out:

Many studies have been conducted in the wild. Fact: Chameleons are solitary and territorial animals. They only come together to breed and will fight to the death to defend their territory. From the time they are born they go their separate ways.

WHY DO PEOPLE INSIST ON KEEPING THEM TOGETHER?

Forcing them to cohabitate because someone thinks it is cute or they don't want to spend money on another cage is just, well, abusive.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Love, grief, longing and similar emotions evolved to facilitate care, feeding and raising of offspring. It is a chemical response in social species that perform parental care of their offspring. It is advantageous for these species to bond to their offspring, mates, etc., to increase the chances of successfully raising their offspring and passing on their genes. Chameleons have not evolved these types of emotions because they do not perform parental care.

Recognition of a keeper or of a routine and subsequently reducing their fear, flight or defense response is completely different from the aforementioned emotions. Acclimation to routines and familiar stimuli is very common in many animals.

Chris

 

[graydon]

Love, grief, longing and similar emotions evolved to facilitate care, feeding and raising of offspring. It is a chemical response in social species that perform parental care of their offspring. It is advantageous for these species to bond to their offspring, mates, etc., to increase the chances of successfully raising their offspring and passing on their genes. Chameleons have not evolved these types of emotions because they do not perform parental care.

Recognition of a keeper or of a routine and subsequently reducing their fear, flight or defense response is completely different from the aforementioned emotions. Acclimation to routines and familiar stimuli is very common in many animals.

Chris

Wow. Every post I read from you, I learn something new. You said it all man.

"Recognition of a keeper or of a routine and subsequently reducing their fear, flight or defense response is completely different from the aforementioned emotions. Acclimation to routines and familiar stimuli is very common in many animals."

You took the words right out of my mouth and put them into even a more elaborate/genius statement. Courtney, Chris is right. These reptiles are not meant to be in a cage in your home. They are meant to be in the wild. Now, seeing how we can successfully keep chams in our homes and for them to thrive is a true blessing that all cham lovers appreciate.

You seem to be forgetting these are reptiles that are meant to be in the wild and not in a cage. When you routinely every day supply them water and food, their fear of getting eaten or killed goes way down and they start to show signs of "affection". I think you are getting affection and acclimation of routines messed up. These chams in our homes become dependent on us (after they settle in) to supply them with food and water. Once they realize this, sure, they "greet" us in the morning and show us any kind of "affection" you want to call it. In reality, its acclimation to routines and stimuli.

 

[pssh]

So people have had two chameleons in a single enclosure successfully before, but do you realise what that does the the females health? You can't control the temps for only one animal and it would cause her to produce eggs more often and faster because with higher temps she needs more food. With more food being digested the higher the amount/more frequent the eggs become. She will also mate with the male just about everytime and many babies will be the result. But you will also be shortening her life by many years. She may not make it past two or three from the apparent stress eggs put on the females body.

Also, you have only kept one other chameleon in your life, and it was a different species. You know nothing about veiled behavior yet. You know nothing about the stress signs of your individual chameleons and by keeping them together, you may never learn or you'll learn too late. Why not try to keep them separate before you put them together? Learn the ways of the individual animal before trying to force it against its natural behavior. For the health of your chameleons you should keep them apart from eac hother until you know them well.

Do you understand the amount of space that is required to keep them together? You would probably need something close to a small room thats heavily planted to allow them enough space apart from each other should they want to be apart. There are very few cages big enough to allow two large adult chameleons to live together and they would cost you quite the pretty penny.

 

[jojackson]

Wagon overload Alert !!!

 

[graydon]

lol nice.

10 char.