Kammi has MBD!

[Ranny]

Hi my chameleon expert friends

Thanks to this forum I have diagnosed Kammi with MBD just now :-(
Kammi is my 1.5 year old male panther chameleon

I have to act now and need your help please
Symptoms started a week ago:
1.) sleep during day
2.) grabbing own limbs / clumsy
3.) stays low in cage / weak (he is not falling though)
4.) eats less

He still drinks and poops - and still eats, but its up and down, some days lots and recently sometimes just one worm a week or so.

From 1.5 years research and experience he has the perfect cage, right uvb (two long tubes changed 6 monthly), right temp, right misting/humidity and nice gut fed crickets and zophobas

This came due to my failure on calcium supplementation :-( i am so sorry
Let me just say now i unfortunately have NO access to a vet, so calcium injection is out of the question. So i need to buy calcium NOW and act immediately so he can improve. It appears he is not severe so that's good, he has no "double elbow", nothing in his eyes and nothing abnormal on his skin

So help please:
1.) what calcium do i buy? Liquid? Dust?
2.) how do i give him calcium if he wont eat?
3.) how much calcium?

ANYTHING you can help me with will be so much appreciated

Thank you, cham experts
Ranny

 

[OwenPowell]

Sorry to hear about this development.

I currently use three different supplements on a semi-fixed schedule

First I use Repti Calcium on almost every feeding. Its just straight Calcium with no D3 or other vitamins and minerals added.
The second is the multivitamin. I use Rep-Cal's Herptivite and give it to him once or twice a week.
And the third is Rep-Cal Calcium with D3 that he gets about every other week.

These are all powdered supplements, so to give them to him I simply toss the feeders in a bag, sprinkle a little on top and give them a shake.
They come out nicely coated in the supplements.

Since you don't seem to have access to any alternative methods for getting the calcium and vitamins into your chameleon, my best suggestion is start with supplements like these on a similar schedule, and try to get him to eat as much as you can.
You may want to increase the frequency of the Calcium with D3 dustings to get ahead of the MBD at first, but I'm not well educated on treating MBD so hopefully someone else who is can chime in.

 

[Ranny]

Hey!
Thanks so much for your response! Really appreciate it

I have bought reptile calcium without D3. I now need to get him to eat his food so he gets the calcium and hopefully get the MBD under control asap

This morning he was by the bottom of his terrarium and 5 minutes later he was lying on his side on the floor! When I was trying to help him up he freaked out and threw himself back and forth! It was really freaky because he always enjoys it the times i am with him - he only eats when i feed him myself, he often willingly goes onto my hand when i put it in. Has never ever hissed or puffed out when i'm with him so this morning surprised me :-( but together we got him on a safe branch.

He hasn't eaten today, so no calcium.

Question to y'all out there: is it possible to "overdoze" on calcium so its unhealty? I ask because now i want to put as much calcium (w/o d3) on the feeders to get the mbd under control. And the few times he eats then at least he'd get a good amount of calcium but wonder whether i could overdo it?

Also supplement/gutfeeding. I give crickets and worms the "beaphar cricket feed" and "beaphar cricket water" it's like little colorful crystals. Is this good gutfeeding?

Thanks in advance for any input
Ranny

 

[Anniel]

Maybe you've tried this already , but you could offer him a wax worm or other feeder worm dusted with calcium? Sometimes they'll eat them even when they're not feeling well. Also if you haven't done so already I suggest reading the care sheet thoroughly on this forum. Make sure you're following all of the lighting, housing, feeding ,supplementing guidelines, it's easy to miss something important. Once you get some calcium in him and he's feeling better if you have the right weather, you could give him some natural sunlight outside to help with his calcium absorption. I 'm no expert, so hopefully others with more experience could offer advice. hope he has some improvement soon.

 

[OwenPowell]

Also keep in mind, your chameleon cant absorb the calcium without D3 in its system. Under normal conditions, a UVB bulb isn't going to get him to produce enough D3 on his own, so you need to supplement for it.

I've never heard of a calcium overdose since its absorption relies on D3, but as with everything, too much probably isn't good. But on that note, I dust almost every feeder mine gets with calcium with no problems.
You can however overdose him on D3 so be careful about how you handle his in take right now. What that ends up doing is causes him to metabolize too much calcium and he'll start to develop calcium deposits throughout his body.

As far as gutloading and such goes, I'm not familiar with that particular brand of cricket food but generally speaking, commercial gutloads aren't your best choice for getting the nutrients you want into your chameleon. I suggest giving them fresh greens, veggies, and fruit.
Check out some of the supplement and gutload info posted up in the food section of the boards. They should be able to give you a good idea of the do's and don'ts on gutloading.
But know that a proper gutload is pretty important in maintaining you chameleons health.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Can you post a picture of him? Here is more information on MBD, how it happens and how to treat it: https://www.chameleonforums.com/wha...ase-mbd-looks-like-how-happens-how-fix-95071/

 

[Ranny]

Thanks for all your input guys, really appreciate it.
So he still hasn't eaten, which is of course a problem since that's the only way I can get some calcium into him!
Understood with D3: Thank you! I didn't know that the UVB I have isn't enough! I was led to believe it was. Will add D3 but watch out for amount.

Here attached are pictures taken right now. He's not looking good today, guys :-( He's spent all day holding onto his own limbs.

Is it time for me to force feed him? I've NEVER done that and the thought does terrify me :-( Watched a good video about it on Youtube, do you recommend I do this right now? Hold him and rub a calcium-covered Zophopa gently to his mouth?

I'm worried sick.

Let me know
Thanks so much

 

[Ranny]

He just climbed higher up without much effort - and he's chilling there with a nice grip on the branch, not clutching to his limbs.
Her really seems to go up and down in how he's moving around. Some days he's in a heap very low struggling to even hold on to anything - other days he seems to walk around rather fine with good grip

 

[croastbeast]

Something to consider is that MBD doesnt appear suddenly, and it doesnt resolve suddenly. Muscle activity can be affected by calcium imbalance too. first and foremost, try to get the calcium issues updated. I would dust all his food with calcium (not D3). I would also try some more irresistible foods. Like hornworms, or silkworms. They are high in calcium to begin with, but Id still dust them. Get some food and moisture in him.

Bear in mind, his growth deformities wont correct, but his musculature and movement can. I have a male veiled that was badly afflicted and several months of some TLC and now, he's mostly just aesthetically impaired.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Bush baby]

On top of what has already been stated, get him outside in some natural sunlight. All the calcium in the world isn't going to do him a lick of good without UV. The lights we have in our enclosures can never compare to the raw power of the sun.

Also, gut load with dark green leafy vegetables.

 

[Ranny]

Hi everyone.
Thanks once again for all your comments.
I am allowing myself to feel optimistic at the moment - because my Kammi is eating more than he has in months!
Over the past 4 days he's eaten one Zophoba worm PER DAY, and yesterday I even got him to eat 2. I know that a variety is good, but he just won't hunt at the moment and refuses to eat the crickets.
Therefore I believe that to get the Calcium level as high as possible, I should be happy with him eating Zophoba as much as possible now?

They're well gutfed, and what I've been doing since I noticed the MBD is soaking the worms in water - then I toss them into the calcium (w/o D3) so that the calcium reeeeally sticks on there, and there's lots of it. Am I correct in doing so, I do want him to get as much calcium as possible for the moment, right?

Ok so moving on, because now that I'm optimistic again I am going to be sure I'm doing all correct. At the moment luckily (despite cold part of the world) it's really sunny these days and over 20 degrees. I've been taking him out "sunbathing" every day while the sun shines, to get a bit of pure sun rays into him. Other than that he always has the perfect UV lamps in his cage (I change every six months)

What more can I do to help him get better? The MBD is obviously still very evident, I understand it doesn't fix overnight - but I can praise that he's eating daily again with worms soaked in calcium. How long will it take for him to start feeling better and perhaps even become more mobile (he's still grabbing his limbs, still clumsy and still keeps low down in his enclosure)? I just want to monitor him correctly right away!

I AM NOT SUPPLEMENTING MORE THAN CALCIUM WO D3 AT THE MOMENT.
I know this isn't good and need to fix this as per your suggested schedules - but I thought that the Calcium is top priority for the time being, especially as he is eating 1-2 worms a day only. How exactly do you supplement the rest? Should I take every other worm and supplement it with something else, not calcium? Or focus on calcium only now? For how long?

Thanks as always
Ranny