Kidney and Liver Failure. PLEASE HELP!!

[VeiledGirl]

I have a pair of veiled chameleons that have not been acting right so I took them to the vet in December. My female chameleon has been looking dehydrated for a week or so, has been falling off of her branches, and has bumps along her spine so the vet ran blood-work. She then put her on calcium carbonate .17 ml twice a day, .04 ml of baytril orally once a day, .07 ml of metronidazole once a day, .02 ml of metacam once a day, and .05ml of sunshine factor twice a day. Now my male has "slow tongue" (he cant fire his tongue out to grab crickets. he has to walk up to them and he can only stick his tongue out so far) and puffy eyes. So the vet ran blood-work on him as well. She then put him on .21ml of calcium carbonate, .05ml of baytril orally once a day, .03ml of metacam, .05ml of sunshine factor twice a day, and panacur .1ml orally once a day for 5 days then repeat in one week and again in 1 more week (she thinks the puffy eyes could of been from a parasite so she dewormed him). So I had been doing all the meds above for about 2 weeks and nothing really seemed to be helping all that much, except for the fact that my male's puffy eyes seemed to have gone down. But my female's feet seemed to have developed sores on them and her right rear leg/foot seemed to have some edema. So I decided to take them to a specialist exotic vet and he wanted to run more reptile specific blood-work. Well I just got the results yesterday and it came back that they both seem to have kidney and liver failure, and my female has a severe infection I'm just devastated! So the exotic vet stopped most of the meds but doubled my females baytril to .07ml twice a day orally, and he put her on a detox/allergy blend .05 twice a day, and kept the sunshine factor at .05ml twice a day, and I have to give her injections of ceftazidime .03ml once every 2 days into her muscle in her arm. And for my male he stopped most of the meds but kept him on .05ml of sunshine factor twice a day and added .05 ml of the detox/allergy blend. I'm just wondering what if anything I can do for them, I don't want them to be suffering I want them to have the best quality of life as possible, I need some advice PLEASE!



Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Male & female: Veiled, 2.5 year old, I have had them both for 2 years.
Handling - I only handled them about once a week before they got sick but now its daily giving them meds
Feeding - I feed them mostly crickets, flies, superworms. I feed about 10-15 crickets a day. I keep my crickets in the basement and I feed them flukers calcium diet as well as carrots, lettuce, potatoes
Supplements - I dust them once a week with the Trex chameleon blend dust
Watering - I have automatic misters that run for 2 min twice a day as well as drippers in both cages. rarely do i seem them drinking, but i have been misting more often lately and I do seem them drink now
Fecal Description - their fecals look normal and both have been tested for parasites and they both had negative results
History - they both have been healthy up until December 2009


Cage Info:
Cage Type - I have 2 screen cages both are 2'L X 2'W X 4'H and I have a piece of plexi glass between them that is painted black so they cant see eachother.
Lighting - I was using the powersun 160 watt but the vet recommended I use the reptisun 5.0 18" and I'm currently using that. My lights so on at 6:30 am and off at 7 pm
Temperature - On my basking side of the cage it gets to about 95 and the bottom of the cage is high 70s. overnight temp is 73. i have digital thermometers and hydrometers.
Humidity - my humidity is at 60% i have a humidifier that runs 24 hours a day in my room with them
Plants - right now i have about 3 pothos plants in both cages that are growing up the sides of the cages.
Placement - the cage is in my bedroom away from the window and air vents. the cage is about 3 feet off the floor.
Location - I am in Plymouth, Michigan

My female's x-rays from 12/5/09 I will post her follow up x-rays tomorrow you can get a much better view

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

You need a new vet, seriously.

 

[ChromaChameleons]

Is that Xray of your female?? Is she gravid?

 

[jojackson]

According to the xray, Yes. Hence the calcium I guess. Such a cocktail of drugs though, including parasite treatment Unless Im mistaken, Seems rather harsh, Im not surprised at renal system issues. Topically treat the foot with povodine or neosporin regardless, But I too would take the full history to another vet, or speak to that one and ask if indeed its all nesssary. Seems to be taking quite a toll on your lizard at a time when she is more suseceptible (being gravid).
I suspect the calcium and sunshine factor etc is because the vet expects your lizards calcium reserves are badly depleted by the egg building process resulting in MBD like effects (falling etc). Keep those drippers running all day. If it will eat at all, offer only really juicy stuff like silkies and hornworms for a while.
I wish you the best possible outcome.

 

[Julirs]

You need a new vet, seriously.

I am so in agreement of this. All of those drugs with no real reason to put them on them? I do not see any kind of concrete diagnosis. I am also sure that the Vet charged you a mint!

Strange that they also became sick at the same time.

Questions:

Did your female have a place to lay eggs if she need to? Had she ever laid eggs?
How old was your Powersun or UVB?
Once a week sounds like they were undersupplemented-do you have pictures of the chams?

 

[kinyonga]

Geesh! Where to start!

I would make sure you keep them well hydrated...it might help flush the kidneys out!

Did the second vet give any indication that the kidney failure could have been from all the meds that your chameleons were on for the two weeks or give any reasons for why it might have happened?

Did the tests the first vet did show any kidney issues? Calcium issues?

You said..."my female has a severe infection"...did the vet say what the infection is or where it is?

Has your female got a place to dig in her cage in case she has to lay eggs? Are the "eggs" in her xray round or more oval? (Its hard for me to tell from the picture.) With the amount that you feed the female and the temperature you keep her at, I would expect her to produce eggs. Has she ever laid any?

You said..."I dust them once a week with the Trex chameleon blend dust"...does this contain D3? Vitamin A? Of so, what source of vitamin A? Phosphorus?

 

[sandrachameleon]

ditto all of the above, and especially: Provide water, as much as possible, and well hydrated prey.

I'm told (but the OP should please confirm) that this is the ingredient list for the TRex Chameleon stuff:

Hempseed meal, alfalfa meal, fig powder, honey powder, defatted wheat germ meal, bee pollen, brewers yeat, calcium carbonate, calcium caseinate, spriulina algae, dicalcium phosphate, haemotoccus algae, marigold extract, rosehips powder, rosemary extract, yucca extract, mixed tocopheriois (preservative), vitamin A acetate, d-activated animal sterol (D3)

 

[VeiledGirl]

According to the xray, Yes. Hence the calcium I guess. Such a cocktail of drugs though, including parasite treatment Unless Im mistaken, Seems rather harsh, Im not surprised at renal system issues. Topically treat the foot with povodine or neosporin regardless, But I too would take the full history to another vet, or speak to that one and ask if indeed its all nesssary. Seems to be taking quite a toll on your lizard at a time when she is more suseceptible (being gravid).
I suspect the calcium and sunshine factor etc is because the vet expects your lizards calcium reserves are badly depleted by the egg building process resulting in MBD like effects (falling etc). Keep those drippers running all day. If it will eat at all, offer only really juicy stuff like silkies and hornworms for a while.
I wish you the best possible outcome.

yeah shes gravid she laid one large clutch last fall. and i have started to treat her feet last week with neosporin and it seems to be helping greatly! Yeah the first vet put her on quite the cocktail and i think it was too much. She was just treating for everything and not narrowing it down, thats why I took her to the second exotic vet for a second opinion which thankfully he took her off 75% of the meds the first vet put her on. Shes only on the detox, sunshine factor, baytril, and the injectible ceftazidime. I just hope that the damage isnt already done from the first vet . I keep my drippers on 24/7 for both of them and it seems like they can never drink enough. And she is still eating quite a bit. Thanks for the well wishes i really appreciate it!!

 

[VeiledGirl]

I am so in agreement of this. All of those drugs with no real reason to put them on them? I do not see any kind of concrete diagnosis. I am also sure that the Vet charged you a mint!

Strange that they also became sick at the same time.

Questions:

Did your female have a place to lay eggs if she need to? Had she ever laid eggs?
How old was your Powersun or UVB?
Once a week sounds like they were undersupplemented-do you have pictures of the chams?

Yeah I have spent over $800 on them in the past month from rads to meds to office visits. I'm at the point where I really cant afford to spend much more, I only want them to get better and I dont know what to do anymore for them. Yeah I have a pan at the bottom of her cage where she could lay her eggs if she needed to. She laid one large clutch back in the fall of 2008. My bulb is only 3 months old I replace them every 6 months. Yeah I'll go take some pics of them right now!

 

[dakotakleiner]

ya that other vet sounds like a killer maybe she has kidney failure from all the meds he put her on.....im happy to hear you have a new vet and your females doing better...best wishes to you and your chams

 

[lbesok]

What is the main problem that you are seeing in your chameleons? How are they acting? Have they been active or eating/drinking latley? I'd be skeptical of prolonged baytril use as it can significantly affect the kidneys. I wish you the best of luck with them.

 

[VeiledGirl]

What is the main problem that you are seeing in your chameleons? How are they acting? Have they been active or eating/drinking latley? I'd be skeptical of prolonged baytril use as it can significantly affect the kidneys. I wish you the best of luck with them.

the main problem with my female is that she is falling almost constantly and I dont want her to fall and hurt herself any worse. and in my male the main problem is that he wont fire his tongue. both are eating and drinking. otherwise they are acting fine

 

[VeiledGirl]

I just added pics of them to my main post. You can see how dehydrated they look as well as my female's bumps along her spine. I am misting and soaking them twice a day as well as I have a dripper running 24/7 that they can get to in their cages

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

The male almost looks cooked

UV burn

 

[VeiledGirl]

The male almost looks cooked

UV burn

YIKES!!!!!! well I'm glad I changed my lights then... what would you recommend for a basking/heat source. I have the reptisun 5.0 18" bulbs in now and I'm using a ceramic heater for now

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

YIKES!!!!!! well I'm glad I changed my lights then... what would you recommend for a basking/heat source. I have the reptisun 5.0 18" bulbs in now and I'm using a ceramic heater for now

Ah I must have missed the MV 160watt bulb ... thats good you changed that one out. The 18" 5.0 is good you may want to think about changing to 24" if you can. The 18" will work for now.

Ditch the ceramic heater and just use an everyday light bulb. "Incandecent" not a florecent. 40-60w should do it. Make sure its only 90 or so in the basking spot.

 

[Carlton]

She then put her on calcium carbonate .17 ml twice a day, .04 ml of baytril orally once a day, .07 ml of metronidazole once a day, .02 ml of metacam once a day, and .05ml of sunshine factor twice a day. So the vet ran blood-work on him as well. She then put him on .21ml of calcium carbonate, .05ml of baytril orally once a day, .03ml of metacam, .05ml of sunshine factor twice a day, and panacur .1ml (she thinks the puffy eyes could of been from a parasite so she dewormed him). So the exotic vet stopped most of the meds but doubled my females baytril to .07ml twice a day orally, and he put her on a detox/allergy blend .05 twice a day, and kept the sunshine factor at .05ml twice a day, and I have to give her injections of ceftazidime .03ml once every 2 days into her muscle in her arm. And for my male he stopped most of the meds but kept him on .05ml of sunshine factor twice a day and added .05 ml of the detox/allergy blend. I'm just wondering what if anything I can do for them, I don't want them to be suffering I want them to have the best quality of life as possible, I need some advice PLEASE!

What are detox/allergy blend, sunshine factor, metacam? What specific conditions are they supposed to treat? Calcium twice a day? Baytril AND ceftazidime? Seems like a lot to load on their kidneys.

How old is your ReptiSun 5.0? How close can they get to it and how much of the cage does it cover? If they can't get full use of the Reptisun's UV for enough of the day, all the calcium in their diet has largely been wasted.

A cham that won't shoot its tongue could also be dehydrated, not just showing a deficiency. The gland on the tongue tip doesn't produce as much mucous and nothing will stick to it. The cham can get "frustrated" and stop trying to shoot. As they lose energy reserves they can stop trying to eat. Dehydrated chams don't eat.

I agree...they both look a bit cooked and dehydrated. The sunken casque, sunken eyes, skin looks a bit papery and dull too. Is the cage humidity constantly at 60% or does it range from higher to lower? I'm not a vet of course, but the timing of their problems cooincide with winter heating season in the US which is often when dehydration problems show up. We are trying to keep them warm (too warm I suspect) by adding light, and all the lighting just sucks out the moisture. The cage might be 60% for a short while after spraying, but soon drops much lower under the daylighting. Drippers don't raise cage humidity much at all and unless there are LOTS of plant surfaces to catch and hold moisture they will lose ground before they are sprayed again. Over time, they lose more and more tissue moisture through respiration in dry air. This starts putting pressure on the kidneys which can affect everything else. Then, we worry and take them to a vet and get meds added into the mix which increases kidney problems.

 

[kinyonga]

Metcam is a medication for pain.

Asking again...did the second vet give any indication that the kidney failure could have been from all the meds that your chameleons were on for the two weeks or give any reasons for why it might have happened?

Did the tests the first vet did show any kidney issues? Calcium issues?

You said..."my female has a severe infection"...did the vet say what the infection is or where it is?

Are the "eggs" in her xray round or more oval? (Its hard for me to tell from the picture.) I'm asking this because oval are eggs and round are follicles. With the amount that you feed the female and the temperature you keep her at, I would expect her to produce eggs. Was she mated at all?

How deep is the pan you provided for her to lay eggs in?

If she laid eggs back in 2008 and your husbandry hasn't changed then I would have thought that she would have laid more since then. I hope she's not eggbound but suspect it.

Thanks sandrachameleon for the list of ingredients. I'm not sure if this is okay to use once a week or not...but IMHO they are both lacking calcium since there is no phos.-free calcium being used at most feedings.

The quickest way to correct the calcium issue is to give them calcium injections until the blood calcium levels are high enough to give them a shot of calcitonin to quickly draw the calcium back into the bones. It won't solve the problem for long though if the husbandry isn't corrected to prevent it from recurring.

 

[VeiledGirl]

Metcam is a medication for pain.

Asking again...did the second vet give any indication that the kidney failure could have been from all the meds that your chameleons were on for the two weeks or give any reasons for why it might have happened?

Did the tests the first vet did show any kidney issues? Calcium issues?

You said..."my female has a severe infection"...did the vet say what the infection is or where it is?

Are the "eggs" in her xray round or more oval? (Its hard for me to tell from the picture.) I'm asking this because oval are eggs and round are follicles. With the amount that you feed the female and the temperature you keep her at, I would expect her to produce eggs. Was she mated at all?

How deep is the pan you provided for her to lay eggs in?

If she laid eggs back in 2008 and your husbandry hasn't changed then I would have thought that she would have laid more since then. I hope she's not eggbound but suspect it.

Thanks sandrachameleon for the list of ingredients. I'm not sure if this is okay to use once a week or not...but IMHO they are both lacking calcium since there is no phos.-free calcium being used at most feedings.

The quickest way to correct the calcium issue is to give them calcium injections until the blood calcium levels are high enough to give them a shot of calcitonin to quickly draw the calcium back into the bones. It won't solve the problem for long though if the husbandry isn't corrected to prevent it from recurring.

The second vet mentioned that all the meds were parobably taking a toll, which is why he took her off most of them. The first vet and first bloodwork wasn't a specific reptile profile so she had a hard time reading it, but the calcium was low which is why she put them on the calcium carbonate. The 2nd vet said that it was a systemic infection. Yeah, that xray is really hard to read, I went back for xrays 2 weeks after those were taken and the 2nd set od xrays turned out a lot better so I will post them tomorrow. I bred her once in 2008 in which she later lad one clutch that fall, but have not bred her since. Right now I have a pan that is 8 inches deep full of sand. I was very worried about her being eggbound but the second vet doesnt seem to think that that is the case.

 

[Zen Reptiles]

I don't know why you'd trust a vet that would give you that many treatments for one animal....

It sounds like a lack of calcium and D3, improper lighting + too much heat, and poor gutload.

Fix those things (costs roughly 50$), and there you have $750 to spend on your chameleons environment.

I'd also get away from the crickets, those have got to be the worst feeder people can use. They're only popular because they're easy for people to mass market and make money on.

Get a roach colony. Get a good gutload. Keep your UV light up-to-date. Use a 60-75 watt bulb (I use 75 for veileds, 60 for panthers, 75-100 for desert reptiles).


A female should be getting a light calcium dusting every two days, and one of those calciums should have D3 in it once a week in addition to your UV light.

Males should be getting calcium twice to three times a week, one of which should include D3 in addition to your UV light.

And what kind of water are you using? I hope it's not tap water...