Kind of a Rant, Kind of a Question, Kind of Crazy?

[kongchi]

After reading ALOT about supplements, gut loading, and just general well being of chams and their food, I decided to go out shopping for supplements and such. What did I get? I bought Rep-Cal Vitamin with and with out D3, Rep-Cal Herptivite, and Sticky Tongue Farms MinerallO, my chams get alot of outdoor time.

Though upon submitting my order to LLL I realized I forgot something called Vit-All gutload, reading the official website description of Vit-All from Sticky Tongue Farms' website afterward got me A'thinkin.

This is an quote from the Sticky Tongue Farms website:

"Dusting vitamins is questionable because essential ingredients we use, like beta carotene, does not work well in a dust form. The beadlet that was needed to keep beta carotene stable when exposed to oxygen, is far too large to stick to any feeder prey. We know reptiles of many species are sensitive to excess amounts of synthetic Vitamin A into a food source."

Im not saying they are wrong or right. Though after reading that, It made me wonder if Herptivite would really give my chameleon the Vitamin A he needed. Would the beta carotene be simply too large to adhere itself onto my crickets? I read somewhere that there is some controversy as to if or if not chameleons could convert beta carotene into Vitamin A at all. I kicked myself in the leg for not ordering this Vit-All gutload!

Then my thinking went deeper. If the Vit-All was a gutload, and beta carotene only converts itself into vitamin A when needed in the liver, I wonder if crickets could actually produce enough vitamin A for my cham? I worry about vitamin A because its one of the important vitamins that ties in with calcium and MBD prevention. I did not want to go through the prEformed vitamin A because I was scared of it being too toxic.

If Crickets ate gutloads with beta carotene, and beta carotene is useless to chams (given if the theory of chams being not being able to convert it to vitamin A were true)* how would my cham get his necessary vitamin A?

On a side note, I realized that I actually SAVED money NOT ordering that Vit-all because I feed my cham Kale and that's a good source of vitamin A

Looks like prEformed Vitamin A is the only way to go =(.

Sorry, such a long write up.

And sorry if I wrote some noob and useless info, Im no pro nor am I saying that any company is good/bad. Just a rant I had.

 

[Leedslad88]

love it! lol...... I was thinking a similar thing the other day.... Good to have a rant sometimes

 

[jrh3]

All i can say is rep-cal herptivite and calcium with Vit. D3 Works because i have never had a chameleon with MBD or any other problems. Any i have owned them for years and years.

 

[jdog1027]

I know alot of people will criticize this after I've read some of the other threads on here, but the first Veiled I got in 1997 had his prey dusted every feeding, everyday of his 5 1/4 year life with Sticky Tongue Farms Minerall Indoor formula and he did great. I swear by that stuff. At one point almost 3 years into my keeping, I had almost 200 Veileds I was dealing with. I had soooo many, I did an experiment and the Minerall batch were all in significantly better shape than the others. I saw an older post where someone recommended only giving them D3 twice a month. I was very surprised. I think the guy was a vet, so I can't and won't argue-I can only vouch for my own personal experience.

 

[Leedslad88]

I know alot of people will criticize this after I've read some of the other threads on here, but the first Veiled I got in 1997 had his prey dusted every feeding, everyday of his 5 1/4 year life with Sticky Tongue Farms Minerall Indoor formula and he did great. I swear by that stuff. At one point almost 3 years into my keeping, I had almost 200 Veileds I was dealing with. I had soooo many, I did an experiment and the Minerall batch were all in significantly better shape than the others. I saw an older post where someone recommended only giving them D3 twice a month. I was very surprised. I think the guy was a vet, so I can't and won't argue-I can only vouch for my own personal experience.

Being a Vet really doesnt help that much...The thing with herps is they are very hard to keep and no one way is the best its what works for you.

SOme of the senior guys on here have far more EXPERIENCE than vets.... They just dont hold the qualification (which in my opinion mean very little unless studied on the specific animal)

 

[jannb]

Being a Vet really doesnt help that much...The thing with herps is they are very hard to keep and no one way is the best its what works for you.

SOme of the senior guys on here have far more EXPERIENCE than vets.... They just dont hold the qualification (which in my opinion mean very little unless studied on the specific animal)

I have to disagree. Maybe more about chameleons that SOME vets but there's 4 or 5 really good chameleon vets in the US and my vet happens to be one of them. www.kirkmanareavet.com

 

[Leedslad88]

I have to disagree. Maybe more about chameleons that SOME vets but there's 4 or 5 really good chameleon vets in the US and my vet happens to be one of them. www.kirkmanareavet.com

I can't comment on the US but i can in the UK. There are like 52 states in the us and you only have like 4 or 5..... There are none in the UK that i know of so i would definately have to agree!!!

Like i said unless they SPECIALISE in CHAMELEONS they aren't much use.

 

[Thompson]

I swear, I don't know what to use. I have both herptivite and the indoor minerAll supplements. I've been using the minerAll with no problems though.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

I have to disagree. Maybe more about chameleons that SOME vets but there's 4 or 5 really good chameleon vets in the US and my vet happens to be one of them. www.kirkmanareavet.com

I actually agree with the statement made.

Both Dr Stein and Dr Greek have admitted that some senior keepers have far more knowledge than they do in regards to chameleons. Standard issues that involve all reptiles not included. Chameleons specifically. I have no doubt that a lot of keepers have far more reaching knowledge and experience than almost all Vets when related to chameleons. Including those who see more than their fair share of chameleons.

I have a list of people I would consult before I contacted a vet. I go to the vet to get meds and thats about it. Maybe for a procedure I am not comfortable with. I do 99% of my own diagnostic and treating of my chameleons.

Edit : obviously not blood work or xrays.

 

[Carlton]

Sorry, such a long write up.

And sorry if I wrote some noob and useless info, Im no pro nor am I saying that any company is good/bad. Just a rant I had.

There's no problem ranting or investigating for yourself...it is good to question things once in a while. The whole supplements thing isn't set in stone. The big hurdle we as keepers face is that we can only offer a tiny choice in feeders compared to the wild. We are bound to be missing naturally occurring nutrients, trace elements, plant materials those wild ranging feeder are getting. The effects of full unfiltered sunlight over a cham's life is also being substituted. We end up trying to fill in the gaps with a preparation that is also based on a lot of guesswork.

One good thing to remember is, at least there is a lot of evidence that some supplements are providing what is needed...if not, no one would successfully keep or breed all the captive animals alive at all.

I don't rely on supplements for nutrition. I try to gutload all my feeders with as much variety as possible and use the dusts to help fill in traces of things I missed. It is also something to approach from a long term view, not a day by day view. The effects of supplements should be cumulative over time.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

I don't rely on supplements for nutrition. I try to gutload all my feeders with as much variety as possible and use the dusts to help fill in traces of things I missed. It is also something to approach from a long term view, not a day by day view. The effects of supplements should be cumulative over time.

EXCELLENT POINT! I couldn't agree with this more.

 

[chams1]

I actually agree with the statement made.

Both Dr Stein and Dr Greek have admitted that some senior keepers have far more knowledge than they do in regards to chameleons. Standard issues that involve all reptiles not included. Chameleons specifically. I have no doubt that a lot of keepers have far more reaching knowledge and experience than almost all Vets when related to chameleons. Including those who see more than their fair share of chameleons.

I have a list of people I would consult before I contacted a vet. I go to the vet to get meds and thats about it. Maybe for a procedure I am not comfortable with. I do 99% of my own diagnostic and treating of my chameleons.

I totally agree, Ryan. I love it that I have a vet that, depspite him being one of the only vest in the Chicagoland area that I would trust to deal with chams, he knows that I have further reaching knowledge not only by experience, but also in this forum and some of the people here and there are always questions that we both have that can get answered by some of you here and/or your experiences and/or your vets' knowledge (i.e. Dr. Greek, Dr. Stein, Dr. Alfonzo, etc.). He is not adverse to me consulting with others first and to get other information elsewhere. I talk to my vet on a regular basis at the local show here but basically, the only times I actually go to him are when I need a med (seldom) or a health certificate (we need these to sell in Wisconsin).

I totally agree also that I try to do what I can regarding gutloading as opposed to putting too much attention to supplementation. However, I believe that supplementation depends on your locale (geographical location of the owner, not the cham). When I first started, I followed the supplementation schedule (and particular kind) of a well-known and well-respected breeder. A couple of years later and after having done more research, etc., I changed my supplementation schedule around a bit (and kind I used) and have since never had any issues in that regard. I believe the only difference in the husbandry was the supplementation schedule and what's in them (i.e. they are able to put their chams in the sun more often....).

 

[sandrachameleon]

After reading ALOT about supplements, gut loading, and just general well being of chams and their food, I decided to go out shopping for supplements and such. What did I get? I bought Rep-Cal Vitamin with and with out D3, Rep-Cal Herptivite, and Sticky Tongue Farms MinerallO, my chams get alot of outdoor time.

Sounds to me like you made good purchases.
I have used the RepCal Herptivite and calcium products for over a decade without any problems. You dont need the vit-all; use fresh vegetables and fruit as your gutload. For a list of good gutload choices, see:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html

I read somewhere that there is some controversy as to if or if not chameleons could convert beta carotene into Vitamin A at all.

True. Mine have done well without Preformed A/Retinol. But many people suggest adding this to the chameleons diet from time to time. You can do this via what you gutload with, by occassionally (like maybe twice a year) adding a few pieces of dog or cat food kibble, avian pellets (for pet birds) , or some hard boiled egg to what you feed the crickets/roaches. You do NOT want to use these for gutloading very often though.

You might find the links from within this blog entry interesting reading:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html
(scroll down about half way for the Vit A topic)

 

[kongchi]

Thanks ms. Chameleon, I already do frequent your blogs, and you're the reason I went on this supplement voyage. You make it easy to understand. Anyhoo, I already gutload with stuff I find around the house, Candy, left over hot wings, potato chips (not doritos, too much carbs)

lol im jk

I gutload with Cricket Crack, and my cham likes to eat Kale, which I hear is a good source of Beta Carotene. I've been experimenting with flukers high calcium water crystals aswell but I don't wanna do it too much because their shells get hard and they won't be able to molt properly. I'd rather the crickets be crushed in my chameleons mouth than crushed in it's own husk. Steve (SsimsswisS) also told me not to because its not natural and the water smells after abit, but so far Im not dissapointed at the water crystals because:

1. Saves Trees (No more wasted paper towels filled with cricket poo)
2. I only put alittle in and more when it runs out thus elimating the stench of "rotten water"
3. Feels like im giving the crickets candy (the least I can do for them giving themselves up for my chams)

 

[sandrachameleon]

....Anyhoo, I already gutload with stuff stuff I find around the house, Candy, left over hot wings, potato chips (not doritos, too much carbs)
lol im jk

Too Funny. Thanks for the good laugh!

S

 

[summoner12]

I have to disagree. Maybe more about chameleons that SOME vets but there's 4 or 5 really good chameleon vets in the US and my vet happens to be one of them. www.kirkmanareavet.com

Yeah, I am going to disagree with you. I also think 4 or 5 vets in a country as big as ours is pretty useless unless you live near one of them.

Luckily I live near two or three vets that seem to be pretty good with reptiles and progressive vet care.

In almost all cases of living beings seeking medical care, there can't be a single doctor who knows everything there is to know. I prefere to take the aproach of; talking to several people with experience. I also don't think it is a good idea to prolong an animals life if it seems to have a certain path to death. I don't think it is in the best interest of the animal to keep it alive just for my own selfish needs. My point in saying that is, if typical care and observation are used to maintain the animal and something I or other people/vets can't seem to get a solution figured out, I think it is best the animal find it's way to the chameleon afterlife.

On a note about the OP.... I think it is wise to provide several ways for your animal to obsorb vitamins and minerals. I don't follow any ONE procedure. I mix it up and don't seem to have any health issues with my animals. I use Vit. A gell pills, fed to crickests on top of their Cricket Crack so that when the gel cap breaks the food is soaked and then that morning I feed off some crickets to everyone. Sure it isn't the most controled method... but how does a chameleon do it in the wild? Does he have a check list of bugs he should attempt to eat that day to maintain his vitamin and mineral reserves? NO. I also dust with the herptivite, zoo med calcium, miner-all W/D3, repcal W/D3 (not very often, maybe every other month).

 

[jannb]

I guess I'm pretty lucky because Dr. Alfonso has tons of reptiles himself including chameleons. He raised and breed chameleons for years all through med school and had studied them most of his life. I guess that's why people from all over ship him their sick chams to work on.

 

[summoner12]

I guess I'm pretty lucky because Dr. Alfonso has tons of reptiles himself including chameleons. He raised and breed chameleons for years all through med school and had studied them most of his life. I guess that's why people from all over ship him their sick chams to work on.

Shipping a sick cham would seem pretty stressful, don't you think? I can't imagine that is good for the health of the chameleon.

 

[Cainschams]

Too Funny. Thanks for the good laugh!

S

LMAO!!! Yeah I found that pretty funny too

 

[bridgofaith]

Shipping a sick cham would seem pretty stressful, don't you think? I can't imagine that is good for the health of the chameleon.

I'm sure it is stressful, but sometimes it's necessary. Elisa does incredible work and she receives sick and injured chams all the time. I'm sure some of those are shipped to her, I doubt they are any less stressed.