Laurie's first poop/urate...*sniffle*

[warpdrive]

IMHO you definitely need to worry about getting water in her lungs! The water should NOT be squirted into her mouth. It should be eased in giving her time to swallow it.

I also would not squeeze her mouth to open it. You might damage her when she's so small.

Usually if you drip small drips of water on the tip of the nose for a minute or two the chameleon will start drinking on its own. Drip it at about the rate of two drips per second.

Here's some information on how much water is enough....
"Water needs are based on metabolic rate (see my first column, March 2002). Once you have a weight on your chameleon, you can look up its metabolic rate from my charts. The charts give "calories per day". A useful approximation is that 1 (one) ml (cc) of water is needed for every calorie. If your chameleon needs, for example, 8 calories daily, it will be drinking about 8 ml daily. Another way to estimate water intake is to use an empirical equation of 10 to 30 ml/kg body weight."...
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=100

without a dought I'm gona be carefull about not getting any into her lungs.
no way I'm gona squirt water into her mouth.
infact, I like the way I did it last night. I gently push down her lip, put a drop into it, half the drop made it in wetting her gum, let the lip close.
after 10-20 times she would swallow.

tust me, I tryed a bunch of other ways to get her to drink, including the way you posted. I just couldn't get her to drink durring her "freak out" moment.
before that moment, I almost thought she would drink with the dripper.
she went after it about 1 min after I set it up...she just couldn't figure out how to drink the water without getting wet.
she made 4 or 5 trys at it before walking away.

while the first day I had her she was fine untill before lights out, the second day her "freak out" moment happend early.
she made no atempts at drinking or eating after the event.
I would not be suprised if she refuses to try to eat/drink once her "freak out" moment happens.

a big thanks for the link as well.

Harry

 

[beeze]

Harry; I really hate to hear that you and little Laurie are having to go through this. I am wishing the very best for her.

 

[hallenhe]

Have you tried the extensive (but non-invasive) measures they do for imports, like a lengthy shower? - I wouldn't put anyone as little as this girl in a real shower, but placing her on a plant in a tub ad giving her a prolonged misting with, e.g., a Motomister (has a large (2 liter?) reservoir, and, while it makes an irritating noise, saves you having to keep squeezing on a trigger repeatedly) with warm water, maybe for twenty or thirty minutes in a session, may be worth a try if you haven't already.
Best of luck to you and her (and Splat).

 

[warpdrive]

Have you tried the extensive (but non-invasive) measures they do for imports, like a lengthy shower? - I wouldn't put anyone as little as this girl in a real shower, but placing her on a plant in a tub ad giving her a prolonged misting with, e.g., a Motomister (has a large (2 liter?) reservoir, and, while it makes an irritating noise, saves you having to keep squeezing on a trigger repeatedly) with warm water, maybe for twenty or thirty minutes in a session, may be worth a try if you haven't already.
Best of luck to you and her (and Splat).

has been tryed and my hand is still tired from that 30 min misting...

Harry

 

[jannb]

How's she doing now?

 

[Chamgels of Avalon]

I am sorry to hear about your baby female :[
I am really new to owning a chameleon so I am not going to risk giving you any advice that mite be incorrect. From what a lot of the senior members said such as it my be neurological, or seizures I think that mite be right, or possibly extreme dehydration? The tub idea sounds safe, as she could not climb the sides. I hope everything works out for you and little miss Laurie. Best of luck to the both of you!

 

[warpdrive]

Hi everyone,

sorry I'm late about an update, but hey, the first time she bugged out was late, before lights out...so I didn't want to post too soon.

she is back in my bedroom as of this morning.
she showed no stress with me wanting to take her out of the cage and she willingly walked onto my finger.

I placed her in a cardboard box for a moment, and took her cage inside and layed it flat on it's side so she has only a 12" hight.
it sits on a dresser that is 4feet high.
placed towels on the floor of the cage and placed her pothos in it.
clamped her basking light to a book, and raised her UV light a few inches above the cage so she has some areas that get little UVB when she DON'T WANT IT.

unlike yesterday, she has ate four (3-4 week old) well gutloaded crickets dusted in miner-all w/o D3 today.
misted heavy twice already, and she may have drank...but I was walking away from her and it's hard to see if her head just bent down or if she licked a leaf.
I left her alone all day besides feeding and misting, JUST LIKE ON THE FIRST DAY I HAD HER.
she is active, walking toward the light to bask, then away to cool off.
she is under a plant leaf now hiding, possably to cool off, or to get away from the UVB light.
she climbs the cage without any problems.

since she didn't eat yesterday, she did not poop today...at least I didn't see any, and I don't want to look hard, as I want to leave her alone.


let's go back to the first night as I may have missed saying a few things...

I first thought this was heatstroke as she was hissing at me or panting (just not sure at the time).
I brought her into the livingroom and blasted my AC to help cool her off.
while today I don't think she had heatstroke, the cool air helped calm her down enough for me to leave her alone and shortly later she was back on a vine like nothing was wrong.

on day two it started again after 2 hours of the lights being on.

I personaly feel that the EXTREAM dehydration, that has been going on for days, if not weeks, along with heat from the lights (basking 84F-85F/room 74F-75F), along with a new environment that she hasn't learned how to excape the heat, has caused her brain to go out of wack.

please don't take this personaly Nic, or anyone else, but I feel that my forcing some water on her has done more good then bad sofar.
I don't think that many people would disagee, that if I took her poop right now to a vet he would tell me to get some water in her NOW at all costs.
her poop is in my fridge right now, and all her upcomming ones will be too...I'm going to the vet on monday to have a fecal smear done on all of them.

I have Spoke to the breeder today and she still belives I'm the cause of her stress and actions, regardless that Laurie was left alone all day on the first day, and for the first two hours of yesterday (as well as much of the night).
somehow I can't get her to understand that my holding of her and forcing water on her came after Laurie's fits...not before.
I was asured that she was tested for parasites and that her poops were WHITE before she was shipped to me.
yet if little Laurie would pass away for any reason I'll get a new female on the house.
maybe I'm wrong, but I don't have any confidence in what she said.

again, I'm going to the vet for a fecal...but sofar she has not had a fit/seizure today sofar.
I realy think that my forcing water on her helped...I realy do.

Harry

 

[Nicodemayo]

Im glad the water is helping. Don't worry about offending me, if it helps, its helps, it just isn't the choice I would have made after receiving a cham after being shipped across the country. I just didn't want you to stress her to death or flood her poor lungs with water. I don't think it is a proper assumption to say she has been severely hydrated for days or weeks before receiving her just from an orange urate. A severely dehydrated cham would be very lethargic, sleep alot, and have sunken eyes, just to name a few. The photos of her when you received her, she looked healthy and alert, which is why I feel that this might only partially be a hydration issue, and maybe more of a neurological issue, or possibly lacking some sort of nutrients in her diet or something along those lines. Its really hard to say. Parasites are a possibility, as I have seen an issue similar to this in a bearded dragon that a roommate of mine owned, that walked in a drunken fashion and would lay upside down, and you had to flip him over. I think to really properly asses the issue, a fecal and blood work are in line. Glad she seems to be doing better, but If she were mine, I would begin to rethink breeding plans with her, especially if she continues the symptoms you are describing.

-Nic

 

[Corpsman82]

im glad to hear your cham is doing better. pretty sad story going through all the posts. im a new cham owner my self just had mine for a little over a week. as soon as i read all the posts i moved mine to my bedroom ( most low traffic area of the apartment) and misted him just out of paranoia. anyways bro best of luck and im sure everything will turn out ok in the end. you seem like your doing right thing

 

[Syn]

In my honest opinion since she seems to be doing better when left alone, just leave her alone and don't go anywhere near her, to feed her etc. You need to give them time to settle in and it seems like you didn't do that.

 

[warpdrive]

Nic,

there is no way I'm breeding a sick chameleon. so don't worrie about that.
I also don't think your wrong in thinking that hydration is only a part of what's wrong.

I'm gona start out with a fecal and then work from there.
if she never does this freaky thing again, good.
if she does, then I'll try my hardest to get her strong enough to make it to the vet...I just don't want to take her anyplace right now unless she has to go.

I peeked in the doorway and she is basking right now...seems like she is doing much better.
maybe I'll dust with reptivite tomorrow to help add some extra vitamins to her diet.
yet I've been adding orange and strawberry to my crickets for her well being.

Harry

 

[laurie]

Nic,

there is no way I'm breeding a sick chameleon. so don't worrie about that.
I also don't think your wrong in thinking that hydration is only a part of what's wrong.

I'm gona start out with a fecal and then work from there.
if she never does this freaky thing again, good.
if she does, then I'll try my hardest to get her strong enough to make it to the vet...I just don't want to take her anyplace right now unless she has to go.

I peeked in the doorway and she is basking right now...seems like she is doing much better.
maybe I'll dust with reptivite tomorrow to help add some extra vitamins to her diet.
yet I've been adding orange and strawberry to my crickets for her well being.

Harry

Harry you are doing all you can. You offer food & water, let her have heat & UVB or elect to get away. You are NOT the problem (SYN), I think she will come around. She is named after me so she has to be stubborn as hell.

I am not happy with the breeder putting the blame on you. Guess you can't do much except not use that breeder again. It is good the would replace her if you lose her, but I agree with you, we will get her back to normal.

 

[Nicodemayo]

Nic,

there is no way I'm breeding a sick chameleon. so don't worrie about that.
I also don't think your wrong in thinking that hydration is only a part of what's wrong.

I'm gona start out with a fecal and then work from there.
if she never does this freaky thing again, good.
if she does, then I'll try my hardest to get her strong enough to make it to the vet...I just don't want to take her anyplace right now unless she has to go.

I peeked in the doorway and she is basking right now...seems like she is doing much better.
maybe I'll dust with reptivite tomorrow to help add some extra vitamins to her diet.
yet I've been adding orange and strawberry to my crickets for her well being.

Harry

Sounds like you have a good game plan. Don't hesitate to pm or call me if you ever have questions.

 

[warpdrive]

Harry you are doing all you can. You offer food & water, let her have heat & UVB or elect to get away. You are NOT the problem (SYN), I think she will come around. She is named after me so she has to be stubborn as hell.

I am not happy with the breeder putting the blame on you. Guess you can't do much except not use that breeder again. It is good the would replace her if you lose her, but I agree with you, we will get her back to normal.

SYN means well, it's just that she has a habbit of not reading everything that is posted and then posts a reply based on nothing.

on the first day I spent a total of 20 mins out of 11 hours with her before finding her on the foor of the cage on her side.
5 mins when I took her out of the UPC box, and 5 mins for each misting (3 mistings).
if a 5 month old chameleon, freshly shiped, can not take being misted, 3 times in 11 hours and have no other contact, then that chameleon should not be shipped.

on day 2, I spent 5 mins on a misting, and an hour later, I spent 2 or 3 mins setting up a dripper.
I stayed away from her cage and out of the living room as much as possable.
out of the 2 hours before she bugged out, I spent about 10 mins that she could see me at most.

on day 3, a day when she did not freak out at all, I spent about 35 mins with her.
remember I took her out of her cage, moved the cage back into the bedroom, reset everything up, put her back in the cag, gave her 3 mistings at about 5 mins each, feed her (she only ate 2 crickets-not 4 like I originaly thought, but she ate), briefly looked for any poop...35 mins out of 12 hours.
more then both days before put together.

if SYN would reread my replys she would see that I DIDN'T spend any more time then you should on the first few days, unless there was a problem.
ONLY THEN DID I GIVE HER ATTENTION.

agree or disagree with what I did, or how I did it. I don't care.
I might be new, but I did what I felt was the best for MY chameleon in her time of need.
I have no regrets.

I have raised Splat from 6 weeks old and done things I'm sure most here would not aprove of.
yet he has never been shy, never hides in his plants, will walk up to stragers in his cage to get a better look at them, will feed from anyones hand, will walk onto anyones outstreched hand from a branch or plant when he's out of the cage, he comes out on his own from the cage-I have not removed him from the cage in 4 months, is calm as can be and I can count on one hand all the times he extended gular crest (throat).
now I know that alot of this is his personality, but I must have done a few things right with a cham that was sent to me 1/3rd smaller then this 5 month old female.

I made a video today to show how fast he's willing to eat and how he will come to the front of the cage to eat it...ofcorse he wouldn't listen as he knew he was on camera.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Req7isUT-Jc

as for the breeder. I think it is a misunderstanding or miscomunication on thier part.
she keeeps saying that I held her too much and forced water in her and thus stressed her into this behavior...I even made it a point that she was in my bedroom and had no contact or attention other then misting/feedings, for 11 hours before I found her freaking out.
sadly she had no advice for me other then leave her alone and proper husbandry.
this is not bad advice, just that I'm looking for more.
unless I'm mistaken she doesn't feel that I need to see a vet.
she asures me that she is parasite free and quite heathy with white urates before being sent to me...kept in a cage with her sisters, I wonder how her husband knows her urate from her sisters...???
yet I will say that she realy cares enough to keep PMing me and asking me how she is doing.

again, I do feel that I need to see a vet regardless if this is the end of her problem(s).
I just don't want to ferther stress her at this time unless it gets worse or continues.
regardless, I hope to have a colection of fecals and urates to be looked at and tested for parasites some time next week.

what I will say is that she showed some realy nice colors today (diferent) each time I briefly saw her.
twice she was almost redish/pink, once she was like in the original photos, and once she had baby paterns.

Harry

 

[warpdrive]

Sounds like you have a good game plan. Don't hesitate to pm or call me if you ever have questions.

thank you, and bless you.

Harry

 

[warpdrive]

DAY 4:

she has not freaked out all day that I know of.
I'm giving her alot of time to herself.
misted twice sofar, and set up a dripper that ran for 4 hours.

she ate four 3 week old crickets...ONE OF THEM FROM MY FINGERS!!!!!

here is the poop...sigh
this is ultra fresh so the poop was smashed by me.

Harry

 

[jannb]

Harry, Glad that she is holding her on. Keep in mind when you go to the vet they will need fresh poop. Best if no more than 12 hours old to check for parasites.

 

[laurie]

Harry, you and Dave Weldon and the posting of poop!!! What is that about?
I know you guys love to make me go yuk.

I am glad laurie is doing better. She will get the drinking part down soon. Sounds like you have it all under control and can now stop and take a breathe.

 

[warpdrive]

Harry, you and Dave Weldon and the posting of poop!!! What is that about?
I know you guys love to make me go yuk.

I am glad laurie is doing better. She will get the drinking part down soon. Sounds like you have it all under control and can now stop and take a breathe.

yeah, it's alot easyer now I think.
I do hope she starts drinking better though. it's sad to see such bad urates.

btw, I'm just posting it here for my records. I don't mean to make you get skinny from not eating.

Harry

 

[Fearaffect]

Its what these 2 do with the Poo that they arent tellin us that scares me!!...