Lay cage?

[ehdee6]

Hello out there my fellow chameleon keepers and enthusiasts!

I've been silently reading as many posts here as possible to be as well informed as possible about my new little friend. I've always wanted a chameleon and came across one who stole my heart a few months ago. so, I made the leap and put in the deposit, went home and geeked right out reading and buying everything to make a happy home for her. Live plants, a large reptibreeze cage, went on a stick collection adventure with my dog, bought the UVB bar/basking light, misting materials... You know how it is, the list goes on. And I took her home two weeks after getting her cage set up.

I brought her home, we had some learning curves about each other; but I'd say she's been very happy and healthy.

I moved her up to her adult XL reptibreeze cage last week and she showed her appreciation by having a full shed yesterday!

So, now my question is the lay bin dilemma. I'm 100% positive it's a female. I know I need a bin of a minimum 12"x12" and 9" high with 6-8" 50/50 play sand and organic soil mix. To leave her alone and feed her more while she's gravid/1 week after laying. That you can manipulate her cycles by feeding and temperature... I've probably read so much that it can all get contradictory. I just want to know, can I set up her old cage as a lay cage? Like once she starts showing signs of having eggs, can I move her to the old one that's set up with a lay bin, or will that stress her out even more? The old cage would still be as she left it, but with the box at the bottom.

Meet littlefoot. This is her going into the bigger cage, her yesterday morning doing her best impression of a mummy, and her mean mugging me just now for talking a welcome portrait.

I'll post a husbandry review below.

 

[ehdee6]

Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?

Vailed female 4-5 months. I got her February 1 from a local pet store. A local cham breeder who bought her siblings said she was about 2 months max when we got them.


Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?

Once or twice a week. I try not to bother her, but she's friendly and trusts me. She crawls onto my hand when I'm in there cleaning. I've had her eat bsfl out of my hand a few times too!


Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?

We don't have many options in Canada (it'll also explain my dyslexicness of using celsius and inches for measurements, eh! Lol); bsfl mainly, and a some crickets. I'm trying to get some bsfl to turn into flies for her too. She gets 15 1/2" bsfl a day. She was eating as much as she could get 1/4" up until last week.


Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?

Zoomed. Bsfl get no calcium, but do get calcium with D twice a month and multi vitamins twice a month. Crickets get calcium always.


Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?

When I first got her and put her in her cage she immediately drank off the leaves, poor thing was so thirsty! (See photo) But I've not seen her drink like that since. I hand mist her three times. Once just before lights out 7:45, once before bed 11and once around 3am. I work from home and do school online, so am always home to make sure the Humidity is ok. I use a dripper around 3pm at a rate of one drop per second until a cup of water has run through. Humidity is 40/50 in the day and sits at 90/80 at night. It's usually at 65 when the light comes on. I have a heat and humidity gauge with probe around her basking area; and two other heat/humidity thermostats, one inside the bottom and one outside.


Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?

Her poops are very impressive for a little thing lmao! Solid brown with a white ending and moist.The pet store tested her and it was clean. It's a local mom and pop pet store, and the local chameleon breeder bought her siblings!


Cage Info:

Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?

XL breeze with three sides window plastic sealed. The bottom is raised 3" with PVC pipe so I can fit my hand under to clean. I also caulked the bottom rim of the cage because bugs were getting in there, mixing with water and creating a gross deathtrap. I just moved her up from the large and spent a week putting it together. I collected Arbutus, Maple, and Apple tree branches from a friend's organic farm to put in for her to climb around. Also some driftwood. I cleaned everything with cleaners vinegar and let them soak in water for 48 hrs then baked them at 220 (yes, fahrenheit lmao! and overkill, I know...) She has a large Benjamin tree, pothos, and small palm.


Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?

All live, I made sure to check the vailed safe list before buying. I repotted and replaced with organic soil, put 2 inches play sand overtop, and covered with large river rocks. The stop 2 inches of sand keeps the gnats away! I'm also going to use the left overs for her lay bin. There are some fake vines to hold the probes in place and add quick access. I used fake plants on the outside of the cage to create privacy.


Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?

The cage is in the corner of my living room away from any heaters or windows. The bottom of the cage sits at 3'4", the top is about 7'4". I need a step ladder to reach the top. No fans or air vents.


Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
Zoomed 5t 5.0 24" uvb, 60w incondessent, and I just got a 22w jungle dawn because the plants in her smaller cage (it was a large breeze still, not really small lol!) were sad and dying. They're all on a timer that follows the sun rise and then shuts off after 12hrs. I'm thinking of adding the 14" UVB from her small cage too.


Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?

Lowest over night is ambient 12-16c. No heat in her cage at night. Basking is never more than 27c in the day and her lower cage about 20-21c. I have a temperature/hydro probe at her basking level, another without a probe at the bottom, and another outside the cage.


Location - Where are you geographically located?

Vancouver Island. Canada

Attached is a photo of her in my hand whe first I got her and was putting her into her cage. Then her sadly immediately drinking out of her Benjamin ficus. Her back foot, frolicking on a little umbrella plant, and her cage.

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi and welcome to you and your adorable Littlefoot! Give me a bit and I’ll go over all of your info and questions.

 

[MissSkittles]

My replies will be in bold and for convenience, I’ll split this into two parts.
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?

Vailed female 4-5 months. I got her February 1 from a local pet store. A local cham breeder who bought her siblings said she was about 2 months max when we got them. If your pics of her are recent, she looks much younger than 4-5 months. Looking at the one with what appears to be the most casque development, I would say she’s only maybe 2-3 months tops. I can’t confirm her gender without looking at the back of her back feet. Boys have a prominent nub (tarsal spur) while girls do not.


Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?

Once or twice a week. I try not to bother her, but she's friendly and trusts me. I hate to be the one to tell you, but be prepared for this to change as she gets older. While there are some veileds that tolerate us, most do not want anything to do with us except for food. She crawls onto my hand when I'm in there cleaning. I've had her eat bsfl out of my hand a few times too! Hand feeding is the best way to build and maintain trust. My girl veiled is quite fierce and will bite me every chance she gets, but I still hand feed her on a regular basis. She does know & trust that I won’t hurt her, which helps when I do handle her or need to do something in her enclosure. Silkworms are my favorite to hand feeding. Never feed with tongs. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/building-trust-with-your-chameleon.2396/


Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?

We don't have many options in Canada (it'll also explain my dyslexicness of using celsius and inches for measurements, eh! Lol); bsfl mainly, and a some crickets. I'm trying to get some bsfl to turn into flies for her too. She gets 15 1/2" bsfl a day. She was eating as much as she could get 1/4" up until last week. Very good, but try to work on finding sources for more variety of feeders. Google just showed these to me. https://supercricket.ca/live-feeder-insects/ https://canada-ant-colony.com/colle...N0YovyMJ6neU2CciB2o4NjQzgrby3vn9xQ2pkdka0uNr8 https://www.exoticwings.ca/collecti...5eq4WJUCHr7uiNubduccxnB63R540OhAqqNZQsM7CHelP https://arthropods.ca/products/roachbox-subscription?variant=46656062619931 https://thedragonlair.ca/worms/
Regarding feeder size, is she big enough to handle 1/2” easily? I’m one that prefers to give slightly smaller feeders than my animals can handle to make their eating easier and also I can then give them what seems like more.
What are you feeding your feeders? Well fed healthy insects are more nutritious for your cutie. Avoid the various colored cubes and gels - they basically only hydrate. Also avoid the various high protein or high calcium bug foods. There are some good commercial bug foods, like Repashy Bug Burger or Mazuri which are great additions to diets primarily of fresh (preferably washed organic) produce. Attaching some graphics below to help guide you. I have a couple of bearded dragons, so my insects get fed the same fresh greens and other veggies that I make beardie salads with. Do avoid plain lettuces (no real nutrition), spinach and kale (high in oxalates which bind to calcium).


Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?

Zoomed. Bsfl get no calcium, but do get calcium with D twice a month and multi vitamins twice a month. Crickets get calcium always. Ok. What multivitamin are you using? Most of them contain proformed vitamin A (beta carotenes), which it’s not proven if chameleons can utilize this form. Only a few contain preformed vitamin A, (retinol), which we know they can utilize. However, use of preformed is done as cautiously as the use of vitamin D…both are fat soluble vitamins and can easily build up to toxic levels if over done. I can’t think of which others have preformed A. The ones I suggest are combination multivitamin and D3 - Repashy calcium Plus LoD or ReptiVite with D3. Makes it a bit easier to have just the one combination product which is given once every other week and then the plain calcium every feeding.


Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?

When I first got her and put her in her cage she immediately drank off the leaves, poor thing was so thirsty! (See photo) But I've not seen her drink like that since. Don’t be surprised if you never see her drink again. Many are members of an international chameleon conspiracy to deprive humans of seeing how cute they are when they drink. I hand mist her three times. For how long each time? Needs to be at least 2 minutes. Once just before lights out 7:45, once before bed 11and once around 3am. I work from home and do school online, so am always home to make sure the Humidity is ok. I use a dripper around 3pm at a rate of one drop per second until a cup of water has run through. Humidity is 40/50 in the day and sits at 90/80 at night. It's usually at 65 when the light comes on. I have a heat and humidity gauge with probe around her basking area; and two other heat/humidity thermostats, one inside the bottom and one outside. Excellent! You have been reading and lurking, haven’t you.


Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?

Her poops are very impressive for a little thing lmao! Solid brown with a white ending and moist.The pet store tested her and it was clean. It's a local mom and pop pet store, That’s impressive! Most (chain pet stores) don’t and their corporate entities seem not to care even if the animals survive. and the local chameleon breeder bought her siblings!

 

[MissSkittles]

Cage Info:

Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?

XL breeze with three sides window plastic sealed. The bottom is raised 3" with PVC pipe so I can fit my hand under to clean. I also caulked the bottom rim of the cage because bugs were getting in there, mixing with water and creating a gross deathtrap. I just moved her up from the large and spent a week putting it together. I collected Arbutus, Maple, and Apple tree branches from a friend's organic farm to put in for her to climb around. Also some driftwood. I cleaned everything with cleaners vinegar and let them soak in water for 48 hrs then baked them at 220 (yes, fahrenheit lmao! and overkill, I know...) She has a large Benjamin tree, pothos, and small palm.
Yup, definitely overkill on branch cleaning, lol. I get it though. Really all you need to do is give a scrub with a bristle brush to remove dirt/debris, rinse very well and let sun/air dry. Nature is not sterile or even all that clean. I leave lichen on my branches even…I like the look.

Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?

All live, I made sure to check the vailed safe list before buying. I repotted and replaced with organic soil, put 2 inches play sand overtop, and covered with large river rocks. The stop 2 inches of sand keeps the gnats away! I'm also going to use the left overs for her lay bin. There are some fake vines to hold the probes in place and add quick access. I used fake plants on the outside of the cage to create privacy. Excellent. As she matures, she likely will develop the habit of nibbling or even devouring her plants. I like to keep a back up supply and it seems I am always working on starting pothos clippings for new plants.


Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?

The cage is in the corner of my living room away from any heaters or windows. The bottom of the cage sits at 3'4", the top is about 7'4". I need a step ladder to reach the top. No fans or air vents. Yes! Love it! Height is safety!


Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
Zoomed 5t 5.0 24" uvb, 60w incondessent, and I just got a 22w jungle dawn because the plants in her smaller cage (it was a large breeze still, not really small lol!) were sad and dying. They're all on a timer that follows the sun rise and then shuts off after 12hrs. I'm thinking of adding the 14" UVB from her small cage too. Just the one T5 uvb is enough. In time you may find uses for not just the smaller enclosure, but the short uvb too.


Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?

Lowest over night is ambient 12-16c. No heat in her cage at night. Basking is never more than 27c in the day and her lower cage about 20-21c. I have a temperature/hydro probe at her basking level, another without a probe at the bottom, and another outside the cage. Perfect


Location - Where are you geographically located?

Vancouver Island. Canada

Attached is a photo of her in my hand whe first I got her and was putting her into her cage. Then her sadly immediately drinking out of her Benjamin ficus. Her back foot, frolicking on a little umbrella plant, and her cage. She is just adorable! Even though I’ve given bits of feedback, your care is excellent and there’s no doubt she’s going to have very happy and healthy life.
Now let me answer your questions. I’m guessing that you’ve found and read my blog. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/veiled-chameleon-laying-101.2488/ I’m not a fan of having the lay bin anywhere outside of the main enclosure. While there are some who do it that way, to me it’s more trouble and risk than it’s worth. It’s not always simple to determine when she is ready to lay her eggs and it is unnecessary stress to need to move her. If you make sure to drill some tiny drainage holes in the bottom of your lay bin and use a 50/50 mix of organic soil and washed play sand, you could place a small plant in the bin to help camouflage it. And yes, that size is what I suggest, based on what I’ve seen my girls preferring. They like the options for different areas and like the tall sides which help hide them and make them feel safe.
Hope I’ve been of some help.

 

[ehdee6]

@MissSkittles wow, thank you so much for all the lovely detailed feedback!

Yikes at your little one trying to bite you, I'm not looking forward to when she gets her sassy pants! Guess I should cherish the time I have well she's still a sweetheart lol.

Sorry I realized I called the vitamins zoomed *facepalm*. They're Exo Terra multi vitamins/calcium/calcium with D. I actually make a food topper for my dog that's a mix of shredded carrots, zucchini, butternut squash, blueberry, and apple. I also gut load the bugs with it too... Two animals one stone! At what age would you say she's big enough for a hornworm? I used to give her fruit flies too, but she became uninterested in them. I was worried about the 1/2" bsfl at first too, but she's been gobbling them down! Thank you for the links to the bug stores. I'm going to check them out right now.

I mist her for three minutes/until the meter reads 100 for humidity.

I haven't stumbled across your blog, yet! I'm also going to give it a read right now. I'm going to try and get started on making her bin tonight too.

This made me chuckle, thank you again!

Many are members of an international chameleon conspiracy to deprive humans of seeing how cute they are when they drink.

 

[MissSkittles]

If you’re fortunate, you can find small enough hornworms at a pet store or on line. Hornworms grow super fast…like overnight! Always go smaller than you need with them and get just enough for a couple of days. You can try to slow down their growth by putting them in the fridge overnight, but only can do this once or twice. Silkworms grow much slower, especially when very small and unlike hornworms, are a great staple feeder. They do have a high water content, so if you give a lot of them, your cutie might have some loose poos. An awesome thing about silkies is, if they do happen to get too large for your cham to eat, you can let them complete their life cycle and cocoon and in a couple of weeks later, you’ll have the cutest little moths. You might even get lucky enough to have a male and female moth emerge at the same time and make some eggs for you.

 

[ehdee6]

@MissSkittles oh my gosh, that blog perfectly summed up everything I've been trying to put together! And I had no idea we could get roaches in Canada, I was told they're illegal!

I was really wondering what to do with her old cage, and a little moth collection would actually be adorable! And nutritious for her, I'm sure LOL!

Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom!

I've attached some photos of the bin in progress. What about rocks in the corner? Yay, nay? I was working off of what I saw on the chameleon academy...

 

[MissSkittles]

@MissSkittles oh my gosh, that blog perfectly summed up everything I've been trying to put together! And I had no idea we could get roaches in Canada, I was told they're illegal!

I was really wondering what to do with her old cage, and a little moth collection would actually be adorable! And nutritious for her, I'm sure LOL!

Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom!

I've attached some photos of the bin in progress. What about rocks in the corner? Yay, nay? I was working off of what I saw on the chameleon academy...

If I recall, roach vendors need to get special permits to breed and sell and you are able to get discoid (very similar to dubia) and Surinam too I think. I’m in what is probably the roach capitol of the US, Florida, and strangely certain roaches are banned here, like dubia. Discoid are legal here and I have a small colony of them to breed my own. I had started a colony of Surinam and let me just say…avoid them!
I don’t really have an opinion one way or the other about the rocks in the lay bin. As long as they are secure and can’t fall down on your girl, they should be fine. To help prevent your substrate from falling thru the drainage holes, you might want to put a thin landscape fabric on the bottom.
You will want to start taking note of where she tends to leave most of her poops. It’s inevitable that a poop or two might end up in the lay bin (just scoop it out), but you do want to avoid her bathroom area.
The silkmoths don’t live for very long…maybe a week or so. They don’t eat or drink - just mate. They don’t fly either. Eons of us breeding them have really kind of messed them up. They aren’t able to survive anymore without humans and they have almost no immune system, so can be rather fragile. I do love the silkies though…look at that adorable little face.