Life, Death, and the beauty of Chameleon keeping

[CauseNAffect]

You failed to address any of my other concerns. Why not quarantine the veiled? Why not allow him to adjust first to a separate, isolated enclosure/environment? Why not ensure that your new pet, from a chain pet store that doesn't have the best track record for husbandry, is healthy before putting your Meller's at risk? Why allow a new chameleon whose personality you do not know to spend every waking moment with another chameleon instead of supervising short stints first? Why allow an animal that is maybe 1/4th the size of the other to interact unsupervised (a bad bite could have been lethal as well)? Why not assume that chameleons will react like chameleons often do, unfavorably to company, and proceed with caution?

That's why I consider this a series of poor decisions and not just an experiment gone awry. I currently have a group of Meller's chameleons FRing together, and it took me months to bring them all together; to quarantine each individual, to test their reactions, to supervise longer stints together, monitor their behavior and appetites, determine how compatible their temperaments are, etc. before finally settling into their housing arrangements. I also had a FR of male panthers, with whom I did the same thing. I have never had any issues or tragedies because I've approached community living with a lot of caution.

Here's one paper on vertebrates in the diet, I should have others on Parson's chameleons saved on my home computer somewhere, they also mention chameleons eating other reptiles and birds.

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/204/21/3621.full



Here's one paper that mentions territorial aggression and defense in males, especially when regarding a female.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1017/S0952836901001510/abstract



Another, how sexual selection can drive the evolution of male characters beneficial to winning fights for mates, get better territories, mate more, etc.: http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/content/20/5/1079.full

Thanks alot for your response, very thoughtful, and an amazing approach you had to doing it, perhaps mine was not planned enough as you had suggested.

I was cautious in my approach and did provide separation. Days had passed with no indication of danger or any type of aggressive displays or bother to the little chameleon. Additionally, my Meller lived for 2 years with a panther of mine, so this was not his first experience with another lizard. The evidence showed that there was no history, or reason to believe he would react in that manner. The experience reminded of his wild nature. I am not a scientist conducting an experiment, I wasn't cautious enough perhaps. I appreciate everyone's responses.

 

[Trace]

...And he did have some bad examples to follow here on the forums- I've raised an eyebrow at some of the communal free-ranging with male pardalis who are "friends" for example. Probably where he got the idea from...

Here! Here! A lot of times I see blanket statements being preached as certainties about free ranging or behaviours here on Chameleon Forums and in our eagerness to help out or up our post count or reputation are we leading newcomers astray?

Personally I’m not a proponent of free ranging chameleons but I will admit it does work for SOME species, SOME individual animals and SOME keepers but NOT ALL of them. Not to disparage the various ‘dwellings’ that do free ranging chameleons successfully, unfortunately it is viewed by less experienced keepers as the be all and end all of chameleon husbandry because of the cute pictures and fun anecdotes. Lately I’ve been seeing a lot of generalized statements like “Chameleons do best if they allowed to explore” without mentioning what can go wrong or how it should be done or what to watch out for. Oh your Veiled is being aggressive? Just put him on a tree in your living room; he will warm up to you. No mention of health problems or other issues maybe causing the behaviour. Free ranging doesn’t always work and the mistakes, errors and shortened life spans because of improper husbandry or quarantine aren’t always mentioned here for whatever reason. Pride? Fear of ridicule? What maybe we need to do is speak from personal experience and not parrot what are deemed as absolutes in the hobby.

CauseNAffect, I’m glad you shared your story. Not many people do, particularly the mistakes. Hopefully somebody reading this thread will learn a little something about co-habitation and maybe save a life of a chameleon down the road.

 

[CauseNAffect]

I think the problem here is that the OP really does not understand the nature of lizards.

Some things that seem so obvious and simple to me, are often not so to those without a lot of experience. With nature and animals.

Someone recently posting about a chameleon drowning in a drip catch bowl is a good case in point. Seems so obvious that if a smooth sided dish is too large for a lizard to escape that an escape ladder needs to be provided or a smaller dish used. Yet somehow it is not obvious to some.

I mentioned the other day about an adult male iguana I was given after it bit it's owner, causing her surgery and nearly the loss of her finger. The iguana's owner was an older lady who taught at a college. Read the last part of that sentence again- taught at a college. Her adult children begged her to give up the iguana after the surgery, so she called me and asked me to care for it. When I came to pick it up, although the iguana was super healthy and pampered (it ate on the table at a plate LOL) it quickly became obvious that she had no clue how to read what was going on with it. When she approached it, it gave a big time threat display- puffed up, flattened out, stood on his toes, the whole nine years. I'll never forget her response "OH Look! He knows his mommy! He loves me! And I love him sooo much!" LOL I suddenly understood how she was bitten. This was an educated woman who had raised a healthy, big, adult male iguana from a baby. Although she understood how to provide for it, she still did not understand its nature...

The OP lives in New York City, and obviously has limited understanding of how chameleons see the world. Probably very limited experience with nature. Case in point:



The idea that a "wild environment" was set up in his living room, the fact that he doesn't understand that just because an animal is captive it's nature does not change, and his puzzling that his melleri would not flash warning colors to a prey item all illustrate that he doesn't "get it" yet.

Probably the brilliant colorations after the incident that he mentioned in his post are also attributable to the stress of having the meal ripped out of his mouth.

But still- he's had his melleri for 3 years. He must be doing something right...

And he did have some bad examples to follow here on the forums- I've raised an eyebrow at some of the communal free-ranging with male pardalis who are "friends" for example. Probably where he got the idea from...

I'm not an idiot mate, and I understand my apartment isn't the wild. You don't know me, and yes most people are foolish so I can't blame the suspicion. When referring to "wild" I meant that I had created a very good setup with a huge space and dialed in the particulars to maintain his survival and for him to live a long and healthy life, which he has done so for 3 years thriving.

When discussing the topic of the signs given. I know his behavior quite well, and the typical signs of stress (coloration, head bobs, swaying, spots, puffing up). None of these were exhibited, and he has lived happily with lizards for 2 years in the past. These signs were not shown when the two were near. That is my curiosity in the incident. You question my credibility and knowledge in these things, but I wouldn't be posing this a question had I thought that I missed something.

 

[fluxlizard]

I'm not an idiot mate

Not my intention to call you one.

The lady I got the iguana from was not an idiot either- she had a PhD. That was part of the point of bringing up the iguana story- intelligent people can form incorrect and dangerous conclusions about their lizards.

You question my credibility and knowledge in these things, but I wouldn't be posing this a question had I thought that I missed something.

On the contrary, I was taking up for you.

Everyone makes mistakes.
You made a very basic and stupid mistake. One that could have been prevented easily. That is the simple truth.

The results weren't mysterious or unpredictable for someone who understands the nature of the lizards. Your error was the result of a lack of understanding about the most basic nature of your lizard.

Your first post expressed surprise at the results, anger at the lizard for doing what his kind do, and the opinion that the situation could not have been predicted and was the result of a pet gone wild.

You are still wondering why there weren't signs that trouble was going to happen.

When discussing the topic of the signs given. I know his behavior quite well, and the typical signs of stress (coloration, head bobs, swaying, spots, puffing up). None of these were exhibited, and he has lived happily with lizards for 2 years in the past. These signs were not shown when the two were near. That is my curiosity in the incident. You question my credibility and knowledge in these things, but I wouldn't be posing this a question had I thought that I missed something.

Does your lizard display aggressively towards his other food items? Or does he just eat them?

The reason you saw no signs of aggression or stress is because the other chameleon was seen as food.

Melleri, pardalis, and calyptratus are all known lizard eaters. Male calyptratus and pardalis are both very asocial and territorial. Neither would like a big melleri in their territory.

I am very familiar with melleri and it sounds like you have done an admirable job with husbandry having kept him for 3 years now.

 

[Djturna4thakidz]

There is plenty of information on the forums in regards to large chameleons eating smaller prey items such as anoles, geckos and mice. These articles were available to you. I believe with proper research, this situation could have been avoided. With a basic knowledge of chameleons it is easy to deduct that the mellers would eat the much smaller veiled. In my opinion this can only be attributed to foolishness and lack of understanding of chameleons. I am not going to commend you on an eloquently written post posed as a careful science experiment. Instead I will encourage you to read much more before making the decision to acquire more chameleons.

This is a sad situation that may have been avoided.

 

[Psychobunny]

I think we are all guilty of anthropomorphizing our pets to some extent.

It's difficult to think of our beloved pets as animals with a simple brain and
nervous system.

Lots of cham owners do not seem to understand that their pets do not have "emotions" and can not be trained and tamed in the same way as a
dog or cat, which have a much more complex mammal brain.

It's tempting and easy to ascribe human like meaning to our chams behavior
and expressions; looking at you with 'sad' eyes, reaching his arms out to be
held and loved, etc. I think it's a natural human feeling.
We want to believe those things because we love our little friends, care and
fuss over them, and want to think they can reciprocate and communicate
their appreciation in their own way.

How many times have you seen bad things happen because people insist that
their cat and cham are friends and will always get along just fine!!
Then, you read a post where their cham had been killed by the cat, and they
cant seem to understand it.

I know, after careful observation, who gets along with who when free ranging,
but I still watch them, because I understand their nature, and anything can
happen because they are reptiles, with reptile brains, programmed for survival
and reproduction.

It's nice to think they have become 'buddies' because they are sitting side by
side on a branch, how cute! but I know they are not capable of making a
conscious decision to be pals

I think if people understood the neuroscience of how emotional responses work, and the structures involved, and knew the difference between a reptile
brain stem, and an evolved mammal brain, they may know better then to
anthropomorphize so much

 

[FrankTheTank]

I been keeping reptiles for many years now. If there is one thing I have learned is that no matter how much you think you know, you can still make stupid and simple mistakes. I don't applaud this guy for doing what he did or even sharing it as a learning lesson. There is plenty of information out there to know that this should not have happened. That's like me not feeding my chameleon enough food and he starves to death. Will I help others by sharing my story to not starve their animals? Probably not. But I guess if it serves as an example for someone to NOT follow then it is worth it. This is a tragic story. Not a joke or a punch line. It is an awful thing that happened. I felt many emotions while reading that story and all of the responses. Many of you have said what needed to be said. There is plenty of information out there if people would just care to do their research. Although mistakes will still be made, I hope if anything this makes people want to really do their homework before "experimenting".

 

[Djturna4thakidz]

I been keeping reptiles for many years now. If there is one thing I have learned is that no matter how much you think you know, you can still make stupid and simple mistakes. I don't applaud this guy for doing what he did or even sharing it as a learning lesson. There is plenty of information out there to know that this should not have happened. That's like me not feeding my chameleon enough food and he starves to death. Will I help others by sharing my story to not starve their animals? Probably not. But I guess if it serves as an example for someone to NOT follow then it is worth it. This is a tragic story. Not a joke or a punch line. It is an awful thing that happened. I felt many emotions while reading that story and all of the responses. Many of you have said what needed to be said. There is plenty of information out there if people would just care to do their research. Although mistakes will still be made, I hope if anything this makes people want to really do their homework before "experimenting".

Well said!