Madagascar and CITES (legal Parson's, etc. exports?)

[Kent67]

Did anyone notice CITES Animals Committee is reviewing a proposal from Madagascar to renew legal trade in seven species of chameleons as well as more species of Phelsuma? The proposal was to have been decided upon this last summer but documents from the Madagascar M.A. were late and apparently had some other problems. The proposal is on the agenda to be decided upon in March 2012. If it is approved, we could start seeing legal quotas for Calumma parsonii, C. brevicorne, C. nasutum, C. crypticum, C. gastrotaenia, Furcifer antimena, F. campani, and F. minor to be exported agan.

At this point the CITES Standing Committee has agreed to withdraw the importation suspension provided Madagascar M.A. can show non-detriment to the species survival, establishes a conservative quota, etc. Those population studies have apparently been completed. It appears they may even allow separate quotas for wild-taken animals vs captive-produced ones.

In my opinion, this is exactly what should have happened 15 years ago. Trade was suspended, not banned, until scientific population studies showed that the species involved could withstand small numbers being exported for the commercial trade.

http://www.cites.org/eng/com/sc/59/E59-14-02.pdf

 

[Kent67]

Wow, really? No one cares about legal Parson's exports? Are they only cool when they've been smuggled and cost $2500?

 

[VeiledChams]

I care I care

I'm not too familiar with the exact implications of CITES as I have never imported or tried to import any animal. But it would be very neat to have a larger variety of chameleons than the ones we see here today. Its nice to think that there may be an opportunity to acquire parsons without the $2500+ price tag, but its still going to be a long time before they actually come down in price imo. There are still going to be those that are smuggled in of course because of all the paperwork involved with CITES.
Hopefully though, we will be able to benefit from the ban being lifted.. and hopefully nobody ruins it for us.

 

[clarkrw3]

WOW this is AWESOME!!! I didn't see this yesterday (don't know how I missed it) but I can tell you if they start coming in I will be getting a Parsonii breeding project up and running for sure! Also the idea of getting CB populations of F. campani, and F. minor going is super attractive they are such beautiful chams.

 

[Kent67]

I care I care

There are still going to be those that are smuggled in of course because of all the paperwork involved with CITES.

Good. Glad to hear it because I've got my fingers crossed. If it goes through, importing those eight (I ain't too good with numbers) species will be the same as bringing in panthers and carpets. Hopefully the quota will be high enough to make smuggling them out unnecessary but I haven't been able to find a source for what the proposed quotas would be.

I wouldn't expect any breakthroughs with mass-breeding of Parson's but I'm sure we'd see a couple clutches hatch here and there.

 

[Trace]

I saw this last night and I am of mixed feelings. It may(?) slow down the amount of illegally smuggled animals but how many of the potential legal ones will actually make it to keepers who can establish decent breeding colonies in captivity? Our track record with other odd, legal species from other countries is pitiful at best.

 

[Seeco]

Ya I'm with Trace -- it would be useless unless a group of breeders or a very wealthy individual could get at least 10 animals. If not these guys will just be pretty cage accessories.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Interesting. I would love to see limited legal exports of some of the Malagasy species again. I would note, however, that I do not think Furcifer minor quotas will be very likely considering the latest IUCN Red List data has downgraded them from vulnerable to endangered (http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/8766/0). If export on any of these species is allowed again, however, like Trace, I have to wonder if anything will be different this time around as far as people working to actually establish sustainable breeding groups in captivity goes.

Chris

 

[Vegas Chad]

That would be awesome to have legal imports of them! However… I too have mixed feelings about them being cheaper and more accessible, the one good thing about the high price is that it keeps them out of the hand of people who should not have them. Then again the lower price will allow people who should have them be able to get more.

The next thought is actually getting some to be sent to the US. Hoping that the best exporters are the ones who get the permits to send them, hoping that good importers get them. ECT… With the low value of the US $ I wonder how many would even come state side? I would L-O-V-E to work with minor… Having even a slight possibility to work with legal animals is very cool.

 

[Kent67]

Yeah, I hear you guys. I am of the opinion that, regardless of international laws, at the very least Parson's from Madagascar will still be imported to North America via whatever means necessary. I'd rather see it done legally and controlled.

As for establishing breeding groups, there are probably less than 5 people worldwide with the experience to be reasonably successful with hatching parsonii. Even then, it's still hit or miss. I doubt that anyone will ever "figure them out" to the point they are reproduced like pardalis. Still, clutches will hatch. It would be nice if more individuals hatched than were imported but I agree it's not too likely.

Personally, I'd like to work with brevicorne and antimena. I'm going to, at least for now, continue to cross my fingers that a few of these are withdrawn from the trade suspension next year.

 

[Kent67]

Oh, that was the other thing: proposed quotas. I can't imagine so many parsonii coming out that you'd see them in pet stores. Can anyone find the quotas Madagascar is proposing?

 

[eisentrauti]

No but I think they will be in the same region then the ones of most Uroplatus. So there will definitly no parsonii ending on pet shops

 

[robmd1]

hiyas kent
Wow i missed this yesterday. i would love to be able to get some legal parsons

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Rob you thought you were late finding this post. I'm just glad I eventually found this. I'm going to cross my fingers as well. I'm glad their redoing the studies for quotas species and going for suspensions not total bans. I would be good with Uroplatus quota numbers of Furcifer minor.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Interesting. I would love to see limited legal exports of some of the Malagasy species again. I would note, however, that I do not think Furcifer minor quotas will be very likely considering the latest IUCN Red List data has downgraded them from vulnerable to endangered (http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/8766/0). If export on any of these species is allowed again, however, like Trace, I have to wonder if anything will be different this time around as far as people working to actually establish sustainable breeding groups in captivity goes.

Chris

Hello again young man. Tanya says hi.

I for one, after 15 yrs of not having a Parsons, will most certainly finish my greatest project in 35 years of keeping Reptiles. That being to get at least one clutch of eggs to hatch from Parsonii. I was so damn close back in 95' and that means you know I'll do my best to work on some bloodlines

 

[lumbasammler]

Will this also affect europe?
I also have mixed feeling, don´t know wether it would be good to have much more of them imported even though it would be good to have more succesful breeding colonies, but i fear that many of them will die...

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Will this also affect europe?
I also have mixed feeling, don´t know wether it would be good to have much more of them imported even though it would be good to have more succesful breeding colonies, but i fear that many of them will die...

I have not read the entire document. However Kent has stated they are aiming for conservative quotas. I'm assuming meaning not terribly high numbers.

 

[lumbasammler]

I have not read the entire document. However Kent has stated they are aiming for conservative quotas. I'm assuming meaning not terribly high numbers.

I hope so.
Hopefully they will be imported by responsable persons who do not just sell them to anybody who pays for it...
Do you know if this regulation only affects the USA or Europe, too?

 

[Chase]

You think this will also affect Brookesia? I agree with everything that has been said. Mixed feelings about such an increase in availability; it may show more harm than good.

LPR08

 

[bighutch917]

Personally, owning a Parsonii would be a dream come true. Still, I wonder if importers will pass along import prices to the general public ?

As for breeding them, veteran chameleon enthusiast Susan James told me that she was extremely successful with breeding Parsonii. So much so, that she would generally give them away . Where was I??????????

Anyways, that is great new Kent. Thanks for sharing!