Maybe dehydration? Maybe MBD?

[MES]

Hello all
I’m going to try and fill out your handy form as best I can. We are a new Chameleon family

Male, Veiled, 4-8weeks old
Bought from PetSmart
Had him for about 3 weeks

Cage- 24x18x18 reptile aquarium with mesh top
Situated about 4.5 feet from floor and not neat any direct vents in my sons room so not high traffic.
Lighting- 1- ExoTerra Reptile UVB 100 that is used during daytime hours
Also have a ceramic heat lamp That is on 24/7
Plants: fake plant ; bought a live pathos yesterday and it’s already improving the water situation in the habitat
Water: misted 3-4 Times a day and there is a dipper at the bottom of the habitat. We have seen him drink very often while misting. The humidity stays at about 20-30% until misted when it goes up to 70-80%
Food: live crickets (we use BugBox from Pet Smart) and also the bulk crickets from there. We have NOT been dusting them until yesterday (the sales associate told me this wasn’t necessary... i know this is wrong now)
He also has access to meal worms and greens. He eats those as a last resort if the crickets are gone.

Problem: starting about 2 days ago our chameleon, Spike became very lethargic and closing his eyes. He also was not eating. We began to mist him more often and check on him often. And of course researching!
Yesterday I began force feeding him Flukers Repta Boost, and he’s also been fed 2 dusted crickets (dusted with ReptiCalcium no D3). We have him a long warm shower mist as recommended. He’s been force fed water several times and is often misted.
*He had a bowel movement day before yesterday (Thursday) and it was normal.

He is still weak this morning and the vet is not open until Monday. Any help? Tips? Tricks?

 

[Crashbandit05]

There's honestly a lot going on, and you need to change several things immediately before the problems get worse.
You need a screen cage or at least one of those exoterras cages. Most of use use a linear UVB bulb AND a separate household incandescent bulb for heat. Get rid of the heater for night unless your temps get below 50*F.
I'd definitely look into supplements so you can get on a regiment..
Your crickets need to be gutloaded with fresh veggies and fruits. Get rid of the meal worms and look for superworms instead.
How are you getting rid of the excess water from misting? The body posture in second picture indicates (in my unprofessional opinion) that he may possibly have a URI..
Your chameleon is young and has a chance to get better but you desperately need to look at your husbandry.

 

[MES]

Thank you for your advice!

 

[MES]

The crickets that we buy are gut loaded. We have more things into the cage for them to eat as they crawl around. They actually eat a lot of the meal worms and the veggies. We can certainly add more to ensure their gut loading is optimal.
We have all of the calcium and vitamin powders for dusting now and will be adding that into the everyday care.

What is the reason for the linear bulb? Just curious as to the difference. We are going to switch it or today and also start turning the heater off at night.

There is no excess water to remove. It all evaporates within an hour or so.

We have him in a warm shower mist now and he seems to be slightly perking up after the vitamin supplements and water/crickets!

 

[CJ's Exotics]

It is evaporates that quickly? What are the temps? Please post pictures of your enclosure. Your husbandry needs some work, and the crickets may stay gutloaded for a day or so until they are less nutritional. I agree, he or she might have a URI.

 

[MES]

Yes, before we added the live plant the water evaporated very quickly. Now, with the pathos it hangs out on the leaves for a few hours or more.
The basking temp is around 85-90 and the lower portion of the habitat is 70-75.

We are on route to the pet store now to get more supplies but i will take photos of his whole setup when i can.

 

[Scottsquatch]

You dont HAVE to have a screen cage as long as your cage has adequate circulation. In fact, many places are actually too dry to keep chams in screen cages. I have a Dragon Strand cage wich is solid on three sides. They are purposefully made that way so that It is easier to keep the humidity up.

 

[MES]

Yes, one can see how not having a fully mesh enclosure would help with humidity. I spoke with a knowledgeable associate at another local pet store. He said our setup was acceptable and well rounded. He thinks it may be an eye infection or just generally not feeling well due to the low Calcium which we are fixing now. Going to give it a couple more days of round the clock care and see how he fairs!

 

[JaguarShark]

He is getting so much misting that I doubt it's dehydration. A veiled does not need that much water really. The white urate part of his poop suggests that he's fine. If it were yellowy or orange at all then it would indicate dehydration. He is young but apparently has had no calcium supplements until very recently. That could be a problem, and seems to be the thing to look at most urgently.
Have a read of the caresheet here and check everything https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/caresheets/veiled/

I am not sure about what can be seen from the posture, but I certainly wouldn't rule out a uri.

Has he shed yet? A loss of appetite can mean he is about to have an uncomfortable shed. If that's the case then keeping the humidity up would help.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."there is a dipper at the bottom of the habitat"...what do you mean at the bottom? The container of water should be sitting on the top of the cage aand the water should drip onto a leaf.

IMHO you don't need the ceramic heat emitter unless the night temperatures are dropping below 60F and I recommend using a white regular incandescent household bulb for basking so that the basking temperature is in the low 80'sF. What is the basking temperature and the temperature in the rest of the cage? Is the cage near a window?

How many crickets are you feeding it per day? How big are the crickets? I don't like to force feed unless there is no other choice...so what I would try first is to place a cricket between it's teeth as the mouth is opening and shutting when the chameleon is drinking.

When providing water or anything else with a syringe it's important to ease it in a little at a time so the chameleon has time to swallow it...to squirt it in might make the chameleon aspirate it.

Is the chameleon sitting with it's nose raised in the air and gaping? Any wheezing? Where do you live (state, province, etc)?

 

[CJ's Exotics]

You dont HAVE to have a screen cage as long as your cage has adequate circulation. In fact, many places are actually too dry to keep chams in screen cages. I have a Dragon Strand cage wich is solid on three sides. They are purposefully made that way so that It is easier to keep the humidity up.

What confused me was the aquarium part. And that the horizontal dimensions sound like a 20 gallon or something.

 

[Scottsquatch]

Yeah, vertical is much, much better than horizontal, but with an eight week old, it would work for a while if there was ventilation somewhere other than just the top.

 

[MES]

Yes, he has had a small shed. Days after we bought him and it seemed to be over in one day. He free eats so I’m not exact on his numbers of crickets but goes through approx. 25-30 crickets in 5 days or less. They are small crickets. With one batch of large which he probably only ate 10 of bc they were just too big for him.
When I’m force feeding him, I gently open his mouth and place a cricket inside. He then closes his mouth and continues the process of it all.
With the water and liquid supplements i also have to gently force his mouth open and place a drop inside. We have been giving him warm showers as well.
He will not open his mouth otherwise.
No gasping or wheezing. No strained breathing as we can see.
During his most active moments today he rubbed his face/eyes on a branch. Could that be a clue?
He has no white/clear anything around or coming from his eyes. And when he opens them, they seem fine. He was looking around for a little bit this afternoon and seemed to be perking up. But he is back to his lethargic self this evening (which is normal maybe)

We have the small aquarium with mesh at the top for right now until he gets bigger. He is only about 3-4 inches so he has more than adequate space. We will move into a bigger setup as he grows.

The water droplet bottle is at the bottom bc of a previous pet we had in the habitat. A bearded dragon. It pretty much serves as a cricket watering device now. It’s similar to like a guinea pig dropper bottle.

The main watering has been from us misting. We tried the ice cube trick today and were pleased at the way it provided water onto the pathos plan leaves.

 

[MES]

Yes. He is sitting with his nose in the air. But no gasping or wheezing.

 

[MES]

Sorry! We live in Virginia. Shenandoah mountain Valley area

 

[JaguarShark]

I am unsure why you have been force-feeding him if he stopped eating only 2 days ago? And why force-feed water?
The eye-rubbing thing is quite usual, they can look pretty weird when they do their eye-maintenance thing.


It is very difficult to trust pet stores staff, we have all heard lots of stories of really bad advice given by them. Same goes for trusting that insects have been gutloaded - if they have it's usually very poorly. That is unlikely to be a cause of anything you are describing right now though I do think more variety in his food is going to be important in his near future.

Are the photos actually from after you noticed the lethargy? What in his behaviour exactly changed? ie was he moving around more before, is he now 'sitting' instead of standing, is he staying at the bottom of the viv?

Has he eaten anything himself not force-fed in the last 2 days?

 

[MES]

I am force feeding him bc the vet tech that I spoke to on the phone told me to. She said that a chameleon his age needs to eat and drink each day or he is surely going to die.
They told me if/when I bring him in on Monday and they will be doing that along with testing him for parasites.

The pictures are from yesterday. When he was acting sluggish and keeping his eyes closed.

He is still doing those things. Sitting and looking up. Not staying at the bottom of the vivarium. He climbs pretty high still - although he has fallen a few times.
His behavior is different mainly in that he is very lethargic and his eyes are closed. Not moving very much during the day and not actively eating or drinking as he was before. You can tell that he feels terrible.

 

[MES]

He did poop though! Either yesterday or this morning.

 

[kinyonga]

You said he "goes through approx. 25-30 crickets in 5 days or less"..should be closer to 15 small crickets a day at this age.

You said..."During his most active moments today he rubbed his face/eyes on a branch. Could that be a clue?"...it could be a clue....his eyes look swollen too. You said he sits with his nose up in the air...that is also an indication that something is going on.

The lights should be places on the top of the cage/mesh at one end of the cage to create a chimney effect and give the chameleon areas of different temperatures in the cage. Is his cge near a window or vent or fan?

You said..."The water droplet bottle is at the bottom bc of a previous pet we had in the habitat. A bearded dragon. It pretty much serves as a cricket watering device now. It’s similar to like a guinea pig dropper bottle"...I would remove it...a dripper can be a tall deli cup with a very tiny hole in the bottom simthat it drips at the rate of one or two drips per second onto a leaf.

The vet tech is right that he needs to be eating but I like to see forcing as a last resort. If you can trick him into eating by slipping a cricket between his teeth while his mouth is opening and shutting it's a better option IMHO.

 

[JaguarShark]

Well, from all the information I think it seems like mbd is the most likely cause of the issue. You have caught it pretty early, so hopefully his bones won't actually deform now he is getting calcium supplements. Once the supplements have time to balance out it should get him back to feeling better again if that is the only issue.

If he is eating at all by himself I would be loath to force-feed. Of course, a healthy cham his age will eat every day - but missing a day or 2 if he is feeling poorly will not kill him. It seems from the way you say it that the force-feeding is relatively easy for him and you, but still it should not be a first thing to do if he refuses food for a day really.

A test for parasites is always a good idea, and I hope the vet checkup goes well. If I were you I would ask about the possibility of a calcium injection when you tell the vet he has had no calcium supplements for so long.

Good luck