Mbd

[SycoSquirl]

I was finally able to get picture of my veiled's front right leg joint which looks like he could have MBD. This is where I posted my concerns about his climbing previously https://www.chameleonforums.com/so-happy-130335/

 

[SycoSquirl]

please can anyone tell me if this looks like metabolic bone disease and if I need to seek vet help?? I'm really worried about my guy

 

[Notlad]

Going to see the vet is never a bad idea, this forum isnt an alternative to vet action but it doesnt look like a MBD case to me, as always keep up the calcium suppliments and id say see a vet id your really concerned

 

[Lpsouth1978]

Unfortunately, It looks to me like MBD. There is a definite extra bend near the elbow. I would get him to a vet, they may want to give calcium injections. Also make sure that you are supplementing properly and that you have a quality UVB bulb that is no more than 6 months old (1 yr if Arcadia). Get him into the sun as much as you can, this will help him recover. With proper care he can make a recovery, though his leg may not return to its natural straight form, it will not bother him once treated.

You also need to make sure that his feeders are properly gut loaded. Lack of proper diet can contribute to MBD even if the UVB requirements are being met.

 

[Lathis]

Unfortunately, his elbow does look deformed. That's a classic symptom of MBD, as is weak grip. Does he always have that double elbow? If so, I would agree that it is time for a vet visit.

 

[Lpsouth1978]

Going to see the vet is never a bad idea, this forum isnt an alternative to vet action but it doesnt look like a MBD case to me, as always keep up the calcium suppliments and id say see a vet id your really concerned

The second picture looks like there is an extra bend near the elbow.

 

[Notlad]

The second picture looks like there is an extra bend near the elbow.

I see what your saying, good thing there are more experienced people than me here to help. Probably should see the vet.

 

[SycoSquirl]

I havent had him for long and he is a very grumpy guy when I try to get him out of his cage to get him outside into the sun for a while (he got really close to actually biting me today), but when he is out and walking on me he does have a strong grip with all 4 limbs but the right side the joints look bigger then left side and the front is the one i am most concerned with. I have the jelly water/calcium stuff for my crckets and change the food in their bin daily with strawberries, lettuce, carrots, tomatoes and such and dust with calcium daily. Thank you all so much for the responses it really means a lot to me to have other experienced opinions when my dad says it doesnt look like it to him ( he has bearded dragons which show MBD differently then chams do I believe) when my parents come back I will get them to help me take my guy to the vet to see what they can do to help me get my guy all around better. Im a concerned new mommy and everything that i dont fully understand scares me at this point so thank you for helping me out with this <3

 

[Lathis]

Yes, the vet may opt to give him a calcium injection or calcium gluconate to boost calcium levels. Real sunshine will be excellent.

Can you give us an idea of your feeding schedule, gutloading, and supplements?

 

[kinyonga]

With MBD you want to correct the calcium imbalance and then keep it in balance so it won't return.

Crickets, superworms, roaches can be fed a wide assortment of greens a day veggies such as collards, escarole, endive, dandelion greens, sweet red pepper, squash, sweet potato, etc.

Dusting with a phosphorous - free calcium powder at most feedings helps make up for the usually poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous found in most feeder insects.

Dusting twice a month with a phosphorous - free calcium D3 powder ensures hat the chameleon gets some D3 without overdosing it and letting it produce the rest from its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system and lead to an overdose whereas exposure to UVB allows the chameleon to produce D3 without overdosing it as long as the chameleon can move in and out of the UVB.

Dusting with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene ( prOformed ) source of vitamin A will provide the vitamins needed without overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources can build up in he system. If your chameleon shows signs of needing vitamin A you can always give it a little prEformed this way without having to worry about overdosing it all the time.

Calcium, vitamin A, phosphorous, and D3 are all important for good bone healh and need to be in balance. It's important look at what you are feeding the insects, what you're feeding the chameleon and the supplements you are using when trying to balance these.

Heat is also important since appropriate temperatures aid in the digestion and thus indirectly in the nutrient absorption.

This is true for bearded dragons too.

Hope this helps.

 

[SycoSquirl]

Yes, the vet may opt to give him a calcium injection or calcium gluconate to boost calcium levels. Real sunshine will be excellent.

Can you give us an idea of your feeding schedule, gutloading, and supplements?

I feed him everyday, medium/large crickets, between 5-10 depending on how hungry he is, I dust with a plain calcium everyday, the heat is around 80 during the day or higher if it is hotter outside ( ive been having a problem with getting the basking spot over 85 and I have a 100w bulb, plus the bottm of the cage doesnt get much colder then the basking, it hovers at about 75) I feed the crickets fluckers with calcium gutload and strawberries, lettuce, tomatoes, carrots, and any thing else we have that is healthy.
I dust 2ce a month on sunday with herptivite, and the other 2 sundays a month with calcium and d3, but everyday i dust with plain calcium
I dont know if this matters or not but my guy is always dark, unless he is stressed out/ angry with me in which he flashes all his colors with the black spots, he is never just a mellow color unless he is sleeping, could this be a sign he isnt getting enough heat?

 

[Lathis]

Hmm... You are supplementing and gutloading.... How old is your UVB bulb?

I'm not experienced with veiled chams, so you might check the care sheets here to double check basking temps and etc.

Just in general, ditch the flukers stuff with calcium. Everyone says it's junk. Get a better engineered gutload like cricket crack or bug burger and keep giving fresh veggies.

Do you offer anything besides crickets? You might be able to get calciworms at a local pet store - very high in calcium. Silkworms, hornworms, and super worms are all good to rotate into his diet.

As for being dark and crabby, it could be a general sign that he is not feeling well. Does he bask all the time? If not, he's probably not cold.

 

[Lathis]

I just realized you only just got this cham. /facepalm

At least the MBD didn't happen on your watch. You seems to be up on his needs, so carry on with the good advice in your other thread. A vet visit would be great. MBD can't be reversed, but it can be halted. With proper care, your little guy should be fine.

As for being crabby, his entire world was just turned upside down. Some chams are very grumpy about change - give him a little more time to get settled.

 

[SycoSquirl]

Hmm... You are supplementing and gutloading.... How old is your UVB bulb?

I'm not experienced with veiled chams, so you might check the care sheets here to double check basking temps and etc.

Just in general, ditch the flukers stuff with calcium. Everyone says it's junk. Get a better engineered gutload like cricket crack or bug burger and keep giving fresh veggies.

Do you offer anything besides crickets? You might be able to get calciworms at a local pet store - very high in calcium. Silkworms, hornworms, and super worms are all good to rotate into his diet.

As for being dark and crabby, it could be a general sign that he is not feeling well. Does he bask all the time? If not, he's probably not cold.

ive had him for almost 2 weeks which is when I got all his lights and set up, he is 9 months according to LLLReptile in Oceanside CA where my parents bought him for me as an early birthday present, as for basking ive read so many different opinions on it that i figured a good 85-90 would be okay but even with this 100W my basking spot isnt reaching that high. He is hardly ever basking but im worried the wood that i set up for that is too difficult for him to climb seeing as his nails are long and some are a bit crooked, but I read your not supposed to trim them so idk how to handle his nails >.< everyone else's chams seems to have perfectly groomed nails. As for the feeders, right now all he has is crickets and the occasional wax worm, i am planning on ordering some hornworms from mulberryfarms soon and i want silkies but everywhere online is out of the live ones and no where near me sells silkies or hornworms. My mom also refuses to let me get roaches as a feeder (which i kinda feel the same way about them as she does) I just feel so bad my guy isnt doing good =(

 

[Lathis]

His nails may be all funky from having the wrong or not enough climbing opportunities before. Give it some time, they will wear down. If his grip is weak, he may indeed have trouble climbing. Give him a variety of climbing types, so he can pick what is most comfortable for him. (I'm not allowed to have roaches either... One of the only times the hubby has ever put his foot down about something!)

Sounds like he was poorly cared for across the board before you got him. Poor little guy - he's so cool looking, too, it breaks my heart. But, it is not insurmountable! Good care now, and he can live a long, happy life. I think you should definitely take him to the vet for a thorough check up.

 

[Lathis]

Also, does LLL have a health guarantee? I would definitely be asking for either my money back or a store credit for selling an animal with such advanced MBD and not disclosing it. Sounds like a great job for your meanest parent to tackle.

 

[Cait0420]

Also, does LLL have a health guarantee? I would definitely be asking for either my money back or a store credit for selling an animal with such advanced MBD and not disclosing it. Sounds like a great job for your meanest parent to tackle.

I totally agree! Get a badass parent to call or go in

 

[Lathis]

I totally agree! Get a badass parent to call or go in

Makes me disappointed in LLL, especially since your parents bought him in person - no excuse for not disclosing the cham's care and condition. I'm an expert at strategic "scene making"... you better believe I would be talking to a manager about this. I've never been to one of their stores, only ordered online, and I have always been very happy with the quality of their supplies.

Hopefully, when presented with receipts, photos, and vet expenses, they will do the right thing and at least offer you store credit for drygoods.

The most important thing is the get your cham healthy. He will brighten up exponentially once he feels better and settles in to his new home.

 

[SycoSquirl]

I know they have a live 24 hour guarantee, but not sure about anything else, my parents come home tomorrow so ill get my dad to go with my Monday to a vet nearby that is a specialist at an emergency hospital (great to know if there is an emergency with him i can take him 24/7) and I will be down in Oceanside next weekend to buy a bigger cage in which we could talk to them about his MBD and poor nails (they told my dad at the store to clip his nails!) (to be fair they did sell him at a discount....but they didnt say why he was at a discounted price) I just cant wait to get this guy on the road to recovery and happiness I love him so much and want the best for him =D