Melleri Baytril Dosage

[MSAquatics]

Hello,
Trying to refer this to Dr. O, but can't find him on here lately. Anyone know the best dosage of Baytril for melleri? One of mine is on the 2.5% solution, dosed at 10mg/kg per day, and it doesn't seem to like it. It stays dark most of the day, and gets very restless. Is there a better dosage that has worked for others?

Thanks,
Leland

 

[Chameleon Company]

Hello,
Trying to refer this to Dr. O, but can't find him on here lately. Anyone know the best dosage of Baytril for melleri? One of mine is on the 2.5% solution, dosed at 10mg/kg per day, and it doesn't seem to like it. It stays dark most of the day, and gets very restless. Is there a better dosage that has worked for others?

Thanks,
Leland

At that concentration, we'd be just under 0.5 cc per KG (0.45 cc). Assuming it was a 250g melleri, that would end up being just over 0.1 cc (0.1 ml).

I doubt the chameleon will like it any better.

 

[MSAquatics]

Mine is on 10mg/kg per day for 10days. Some people cut the dose in half to 5mg/kg over 20 days, Melleri can't tolerate it much longer.Dr. O had recommended a dose that worked well for another's melleri here in the past, just trying to find out what has worked well for others.

Leland

 

[Olimpia]

Email him at [email protected]. He's been super busy teaching lately, I know he's not logging on all that often. But he does see his email.

I can't tell you the dose concentration or amount (I have no memory for numbers), but I can tell you we used an unconventional dosing pattern - so it might have been, say, 2ml for three days, then 1ml every other day for 5 doses, and then 1ml every 3 days for another few. The Meller's weighed in at 430 grams at the time.

This knocked out the RI immediately (and it was a bad one, you could hear her gurgle from across the room.) However, the stomatitis took another full round and quite a bit of oral cleanliness to get over.

 

[MSAquatics]

I spoke with him via email yesterday, and he asked me to post the question here so that he could respond here and others could help as well, and/or learn about the treatment as well.

 

[jannb]

I recommend you contact your vet that put your Melleri on the Baytril for the dose that he/she wants you to give.

 

[MSAquatics]

Well the problem with the vet is they're not super familiar with chameleon care. The closest vet that is, is 300miles away.

 

[tucc185]

I urge you from long experience to avoid baytril if at all possible. It is a standard "go to" for vets but I have had more chameleons die from its toxicity (even at a tenth of the recommended chameleon dosage) than I have had recover. I just don't think more fragile montanes like mellers are able to handle it.

 

[MSAquatics]

I'm well aware of its dangers, and I'm also not happy about the Cham being on it, but I'm 3 days into the dose, so it's past the point of no return. The good news is the Cham is showing signs of improvement, and drinks plenty in the mornings. He gets a 2hr shower every morning. He darkens up after the dose of baytril, for most of the day, then settles down and greens back up by the end of the day. He hasn't eaten in 3 days now, but as long as he stays hydrated, I'm not too worried. He weighs 350g right now, and doesn't look skinny or dehydrated, so he can allow a little bit of weight loss, as long as he starts eating within the next 5-7days.

 

[Olimpia]

Are you injecting it into the mouth directly or...? The dark moodiness may be the stress from being handled and pried open. Mine kept her appetite during the first round and I was able to inject it directly into her feeders. The second dose did induce anorexia and we had to give it to her by force and she definitely hated that.

My avatar photo is proof of how little she appreciated that! Thankfully now she's forgotten and is back to being a super sweet, trusting animal.

Edit - I've never had bad luck with Baytril, but I think if a really generous amount of water is involved it usually goes ok. I also mist substantially, and might even fill half the syringe with water while I'm dosing, so it's never had any adverse effects for me.

 

[djfishygillz]

Are you injecting it into the mouth directly or...? The dark moodiness may be the stress from being handled and pried open. Mine kept her appetite during the first round and I was able to inject it directly into her feeders. The second dose did induce anorexia and we had to give it to her by force and she definitely hated that.

My avatar photo is proof of how little she appreciated that! Thankfully now she's forgotten and is back to being a super sweet, trusting animal.

Edit - I've never had bad luck with Baytril, but I think if a really generous amount of water is involved it usually goes ok. I also mist substantially, and might even fill half the syringe with water while I'm dosing, so it's never had any adverse effects for me.

Do you recommend he should force feed?

 

[fluxlizard]

I used it at 10mg per kg. 10 days. But dosage can be as low as 5 mg per kg- as far as I know you don't have to go 20 days at that lower end of the dose. And I'm not a vet but my guess is that would not be a good idea for the chameleon as well as for the resistance to the drug - if it isn't taken care of in 10, it will probably then be resistant unless you up the dosage and the longer the cham is treated the greater the chances of problems from the baytril for the lizard.

Only problem I had with baytril was one time some senegals had a bad side effect- killed their gut bacteria (I guess) and they got yeast infection- terrible smell and thick saliva from mouth. No cure at that time.

Always was effective for melleri.

I always treated them at night, right after lights out so they don't stress- they sleep the stress off and have a stress free next day. Treatment also included lots of fluids and probiotics.

 

[MSAquatics]

I have to pry his mouth open and inject it into the back of his throat. It's less than pleasant for him to say the least.

 

[MSAquatics]

I don't think there's any need to force feed him yet. I'm trying to keep the stress to a minimum. It's already rough on him having to pry his mouth open.

 

[Olimpia]

No, I don't think there's any need to force feed either. I was just asking to see what method you used.

And treating for longer days wouldn't necesarily increase resistance to the drug. That tends to happen when you stop a drug short of the recommended time, (say 6 days out of 10) and (for the sake of illustration) 60% of the bacteria die but you're left with the 40% that was stronger than the majority but will still succum to the antibiotic in the next few days of treatment. More days in a single treatment would probably end up being more effective. OR, if the dose concentration is too weak and then you do kill off the weaker strains of bacteria but the stronger ones persist, even through several days of treatment. And then certainly you have to increase the strength of the next dose to make up for leaving behind only the more resistant strains, yes.

So it's a balance between strength and duration of treatment.

 

[fluxlizard]

OR, if the dose concentration is too weak and then you do kill off the weaker strains of bacteria but the stronger ones persist, even through several days of treatment. And then certainly you have to increase the strength of the next dose to make up for leaving behind only the more resistant strains, yes.

Yeah- that's what I'm talking about/thinking about.

A low dose that doesn't do the job in 10 probably won't do it in 20 is also what I was thinking.

and 5mg per kg is within the range normally alloted for 10 day treatment.

I could be wrong in my thinking though- this is the first time I've heard of anyone recommending 20 days and I'm not a vet or current in knowledge- but then again I don't think most vets currently go with baytril as a first choice for antibiotics.

After 10 days you are probably better off switching antibiotics if possible.

OP- to open your mellers mouth just tickle the lips or very gently applly a bit of pressure to the "nose" or very gently "tap" the lips/nose area. Gently means gently. Should open right up and gape at you. Even really sick ones I used to acclimate opened up from that and gape. If keeping it open is a problem after that try quickly slipping a rubber spatula in the mouth when it opens up.

If you are uncomfortable with any of this- you are much better off going to the vet. Even if you are, you are still much better off going to the vet. Even if you have to drive an hour or two to a good one.

 

[MSAquatics]

Thanks for the advice. Giving it to him at night is a good idea, I'll switch to that. I'm very comfortable giving him the dose, he on the other hand is not fond of it. I've tried the tickling, and he just wants to jerk his head away from my hand. When they gape, it's obviously very easy. Ill try again how you described it, because it would definitely be much easier.
If something were seriously wrong, and I couldn't handle it, I would drive 5hrs away to Chicago if needs be.

Leland

 

[Dr O]

ok, i’m here——and thank you for posting this on the CF, Leland!

various thought and questions—

-imo, this entire forum in general gives an undeservedly bad name to a very good antibiotic that is often overutilzed to be sure, but usually works very well w/ minimal side effects when properly dosed. some of the newer herp lovers here have it easy——just 15 years ago we were still using gentamicin injectable as our best herp antibiotic, and i could almost literally tell you how much of the kidney i was going to destroy by how much gent i had to use. things are better! with that being said, ciprofloxacin (baytril’s common human sibling) has become less expensive in it’s generic form, and is often superceding enrofloxacin nowadays in terms of kill spectrum. particualrly with Pseudomonas; i’ve had many cultures in the past years becoming resistant to Baytril but still susceptible to cipro. addl’y, cipro is available in many oral forms, eyedrops, etc.

-baytril has a massively wide dosing schedule across species, and often translated poorly into the herp world. additionally, the injectable form is well known for causing “sterile abscesses” and should usually never be given (injectably) more than once in the treatment, if at all. in chams it’s worse as they usually turn black at the injection site for a few days, but that does resolve in 99% of cases.

-@ flux--without a doubt, the #1 and #2 reasons for causing antibiotic resistance is dosing for too short a period of time and stopping, followed by prescribing a low dose for a very long time. happy to discuss further if you like.

-so, to the OP’s post. i almost NEVER give chams Baytril on a daily basis. other herps maybe, but cham metabolism appears slow to process it as compared to other herps, the injectable solution is incredibly bitter and sometimes causes them to stop drinking——>dehydration; and imo that’s why chams appear to have an overabundance of renal side effects. the “classic” Baytril dosage is thus: no more than 2.5mg/kg injected at any one time, and orally 5-20mg/kg/day. again, i think that’s too frequent for cham metabolism. luckily there’s a lot we can do to change the recipe.

-my recipe depends completely on where the infection is and the apparent severity. a soft-tissue only infection is dosed completely different than one that’s in the bone (which may be on Baytril for 4-6 months). for a classic URI i usually either begin w/ an injection or a 1½-2x oral dose, and typically would use a minimum of 10mg/kg q 48 hours, bone infections up to 20mg/kg q 48-72 hours. i may have the patient take the first few doses daily for 1-3 days, q 48 hours for another few doses, and perhaps q 72 at a higher doasage for long-term therapy. age of patient is a big factor. hydration must be maintained; if they’re not drinking they get SQ fluids q 24-48 hours @ 10ml/kg/day. i don’t give forced oral fluids much anymore to chams as that volume at one time often leads to aspiration pneumonia, and it’s too stressful to split it up orally several times daily. SQ is much easier for the patient.

-other things—as the injection is so bitter orally, i would strongly suggest coloring it w/ applesauce or something fruity; you don’t want him to go off food/water just due to a lousy taste in his mouth. also, i don’t think you ever wrote the volume that you are giving, just the dosage. my calc’s assume you are giving 0.14ml daily? (10mg/kg x 350g w/ 25mg/ml solution?) need to make sure that part’s correct.

i cannot tell you to change your dose to X; it’s illegal (and you do mention your cham is getting better). i can say theoretically i may have tx’d your boy for a few days at one dose, and then slowed/increased dose to something like 15mg/kg/48 hours.

is that volume of 0.14mls correct?

o-

 

[Dr O]

p.s.—i too have begun taking advantage of night doses as long as they’re relatively warm (temp’s should be increased when they’re sick anyway). i agree that most will swallow w/o even opening their eyes and “forget about it” by the next day. however, i would not be surprised if the day vs. night pharmacodynamics of most medicines vary greatly; everything slows down at night. i could make an easy argument that the meds circulate more effectively during the day when basking. but…..no one knows.

 

[MSAquatics]

Well, I'm giving the cham 1.6ml a day, of 10mg/kg with the oral baytril. The vet mixed it with a pina colada flavor to help with the bitterness, so I don't know what volume she mixed into the baytril. I've given him 4 doses of 1.6ml, and the thick mucus is now gone, but he is holding both eyes shut partially for most of the day. He will open them when I walk in the room, but shuts them again once he's comfortable. He's staying very dark all day. Im keeping his room at 80% humidity, and 75-78 degrees F in the day, with a 10 degree drop at night.He doesn't drink much throughout the day, actually acts like he hates the water hitting him, and panics, but in the morning he will sit for almost an hour in the misters. He passed a large amount of mucus today, with a small amount of white urates, and a moderate amount of very loose, pudding like stool, so it looks like he's hydrated.
Should I back his dosage down to 5 mg/kg or by half every other day now for the remaining days? Should I give him a 48hr break off of the baytril?

Thank you for your help,
Leland