Metabolic Bone Disease

[Ozzah]

Cage Info:
Cage Type - glass bottom with paper towels, 4 glass sides with mesh top. Roughly 30cm x 30cm base, and about 50cm high. Fan blowing fresh air into enclosure over heat lamp. Air escapes at joins for doors.
Lighting - Small, compact UVA/UVB fluro. Was runnin ~16hr a day, now runnig 24/7
Temperature - Hottest temp is roughly 35°, coldest is around 20°. Heater runs 24/7 and she usually sits around the middle of the enclosure, but happily moves up and down.
Humidity - I have a jug of water near the heater, the water evaporates quite quickly and the fan blows the humidity inside.
Plants - Dead branches
Location - Enclosure is at waist-eye level in the kitchen, in the corner. Away from windows.

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - 2 month old, female, veiled chameleon
Handling - Very rarely. I have only held her once for less than a minute
Feeding - I feed her crickets once a day. About 5 or 6 small crickets.
Supplements - I use a multivitamin supplement with calcium and other vits/minerals. Previously I wasn't dusting the crickets, I was adding the supplement to their food as was advised to me off a website.
Watering - I used to mist once or twice a day. She would lick the water off leaves, branches, and the glass. Now she is happy to drink from a shallow pond in the bottom of her enclosure.
Fecal Description - Solid, black/dark brown with white stringy bit.
Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? No
History - Nothing to note.
Current Problem:

She has MBD. I noticed it about 2 weeks ago, but didn't know what it was. I thought it may have been part of her normal development. Her arms have extra bends, and her legs have slight twists.
She eats well, drinks well, has good grip in her hands, has not much trouble climbing.
When she is on the enclosure floor, she seems to walk not on her hands/fingers, she walks on her entire lower arms.
I'm not sure which bend is her elbow and which bend is the kink in her bone.

I am not near a vet, I am in a rural area with no access to a car, and cannot get any special supplements that can only be purchased from a vet.

I have been dusting the crickets quite heavily lately (about a 4 days). She has been eating the dusted crickets, but I haven't seen any improvement (not that I expect any in such a short time).

What else can I do to help her recover?
What is the likely prognosis? I don't think it's terribly severe, but will her bones return to normal with enough calcium?
Is she in pain?

My friend has her sister, and she is fine. He was dusting the outside of the crickets instead of adding the supplements to the crickets food like I have.

I can try to take photos soon.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

What kind of compact do you have? And are you using a calcium w D3 supplement, not just a multivitamin with calcium in it?

-chris

 

[Ozzah]

What kind of compact do you have? And are you using a calcium w D3 supplement, not just a multivitamin with calcium in it?

-chris

It's a "Repti Glo 5.0 UVB"

I am using "Rep-Cal Herptivite multivitamins with beta carotene"

It doesn't appear to have any D3 unless D3 has a different name like ascorbic acid = C

It has between 2.2-2.3% calcium

Will she recover? Will her legs straighten out?
I know I was following the advice of other websites and friends, but I can't help feeling really guilty and feeling bad for her. I hope she's not in pain. She doesn't act like she is.

 

[Julirs]

Cage Info:
Cage Type - glass bottom with paper towels, 4 glass sides with mesh top. Roughly 30cm x 30cm base, and about 50cm high. Fan blowing fresh air into enclosure over heat lamp. Air escapes at joins for doors.
Lighting - Small, compact UVA/UVB fluro. Was runnin ~16hr a day, now runnig 24/7 Compact UVB is dangerous and has been known to cause eye issues. I am hoping there is not glass or plastic between the bulb and the chameleon. A flourescent tube UVb is highly recommened. Chameleons need to sleep and the lights should only be on 10ish hours daily. Being awake all the time is probably contributing to illness here.Temperature - Hottest temp is roughly 35°, coldest is around 20°. Heater runs 24/7 and she usually sits around the middle of the enclosure, but happily moves up and down. This is way too hot for a 2 month old. It should be no higher then 82F/27C. You are cooking the poor thing.
Humidity - I have a jug of water near the heater, the water evaporates quite quickly and the fan blows the humidity inside. Do you know what the humidity is-too much can cause URI-esp. in a glass tank.
Plants - Dead branches Poor thing needs some live plants or at least some plastic foliage.
Location - Enclosure is at waist-eye level in the kitchen, in the corner. Away from windows.

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - 2 month old, female, veiled chameleon
Handling - Very rarely. I have only held her once for less than a minute
Feeding - I feed her crickets once a day. About 5 or 6 small crickets.
Supplements - I use a multivitamin supplement with calcium and other vits/minerals. Previously I wasn't dusting the crickets, I was adding the supplement to their food as was advised to me off a website. This has more than likely casued the MBD. She should only be getting a multivit/mineral supp. a few times monthly and calcium without D3 5 times weekly, with D3 a few times monthly.
Watering - I used to mist once or twice a day. She would lick the water off leaves, branches, and the glass. Now she is happy to drink from a shallow pond in the bottom of her enclosure. Very unusual, misting is preferred-change water daily.
Fecal Description - Solid, black/dark brown with white stringy bit.
Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? No
History - Nothing to note.
Current Problem:

She has MBD. I noticed it about 2 weeks ago, but didn't know what it was. I thought it may have been part of her normal development. Her arms have extra bends, and her legs have slight twists.
She eats well, drinks well, has good grip in her hands, has not much trouble climbing.
When she is on the enclosure floor, she seems to walk not on her hands/fingers, she walks on her entire lower arms.
I'm not sure which bend is her elbow and which bend is the kink in her bone.

I am not near a vet, I am in a rural area with no access to a car, and cannot get any special supplements that can only be purchased from a vet.

I have been dusting the crickets quite heavily lately (about a 4 days). She has been eating the dusted crickets, but I haven't seen any improvement (not that I expect any in such a short time).

What else can I do to help her recover?
What is the likely prognosis? I don't think it's terribly severe, but will her bones return to normal with enough calcium?
Is she in pain?

My friend has her sister, and she is fine. He was dusting the outside of the crickets instead of adding the supplements to the crickets food like I have.

I can try to take photos soon.

She needs to go to a Vet for Calcium injections. Her leg bends sound very severe and will not revert, but she can go on to live a healthier life with the right treatment and care.

 

[Ozzah]

I was going to attach the photos directly here, but there was a filesize and resolution limit.

They're here:
http://www.czibula.com/SickCamilla/

Notice the extra bend in her front arm (they're both bent, but you can't see the other one). I think the main bend isn't her elbow, I think the main bend is her MBD. I think the lesser bend is her actual elbow.

Her hind legs have a slight twist to them, but it's not very noticable, especially compared to her front ones.

I've also attached photos of the enclosure.
Notice it's glass, with a mesh top. The top is enclosed by a cardboard box to which is attached the heat lamp and UV lamp. There is a PC case fan blowing air gently over the lamps into the enclosure, and the pressure escapes through the gaps in the glass at the door and the vents near the bottom.

You can also see the jug of water up the top that provides humidity.

 

[Julirs]

The UVB compact only providing the UVB to a small area and she is probably not getting close enough. I would get an 18" flourescent tube that will stretch across the whole top and get some vines within 5" of the top of the cage so she can get close. Those compacts are just proving to be too dangerous to chameleon eyes. Is it cold where you are in the house? You definitley need to get more air flow in that cage and my guess is far less humidity. Red heat light also not suggested-get a white heat lamp and get the basking temp to low 80's(26C)-rest of the cage fine in low to mid 70's(22C). Night temps can drop to 60's with no problems.

How are you not causing a fire with that red heat lamp near that cardboard?

 

[kinyonga]

The longer you wait to correct the MBD the more damage will be done.

 

[hiei]

My chameleon had MBD & looked like this back in May, but I saved his life by removing the plastic lined lid & also removed the plastic cover from the UV lamp. It can't get the vitamins through the glass or plastic. Also the vines & a larger lamp would do great things for your dear ol pal. My Chameleon wasn't in such great conditions & eventually gave up eating & I had to help him eat & drink everyday for about a month. Keep dusting those crickets he needs all the help he can get at this point. Don't give up he looks like a fighter to me

 

[jukeboxpunk]

Mbd

What signs and symptoms can we as chameleon owners look for to ensure our chams are not suffering from MBD?

I too use a compact UVb light during the day, and red heat lamp for night time temps ( it gets cold here and very dry in NH). How does a compact UVb bulb affect a chams eyes? I am aware that Julirs has stated some side affects from the compact bulb but what is really the reason why the bulb causes these issues? Are they giving off a concentrated level of UVb or what? I just want to know before I switch to the long tubes.

 

[alhickabee]

You need to follow Juli's advice, she knows what she's talking about. The compact UVB florescent has been know to cause serious eye problems and even blindness in chameleons. I don't know why the compact causes this but it is much better to be safer than sorry. The red night heat light is not needed, most chameleons need a temperature drop at night. This helps them sleep more deeply. For veileds the night time temp can drop as low as 65*F. You also need to invest in a real screened cage. They are not that expensive online and if you're handy all the materials are readily available at your local hardware store. As you are about to find out proper husbandry from the beginning will always cost less than even one trip to the vet.
If you have not read this guide please read it throughly it is the bible for caring for veiled chameleons.
raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/

 

[jukeboxpunk]

I live in the cold

My apartment drops well below 65 at night. I have a four foot tall screened enclosure. At night a place the red heat bulb on to offer my cham a means of producing a consistent 65 degrees. The cham moves to an acceptable level of the enclosure to sleep. For me the red heat bulb at night is insurance. Too cold and the cham may suffer. I don't want that.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I am using "Rep-Cal Herptivite multivitamins with beta carotene"

I dont recall for sure, but I dont Herpvite (blue label) is a sufficient source of calcium. If you are gutloading your insects well, you only need to use vitamins once a week or less.
A calcium supplement (green label) should be used on your crickets every time. A Calcium with D3 (pink label) should be used once a week or less.

Ensure your UVB (switch to the linear tube asap) must not have glass or plastic between the bulb and the chameleon.

Monitor temperature and humidity inside your enclosure carefully. A young chameleon does not need it so hot. What do you mean when you say "Heater runs 24/7 "? Do you mean the lights!? Lights MUST be off at night. If you need extra heat at night, use a ceramic (does not emit light) bulb or just turn up the central heating in that room so it doesnt go below ~65F/ 18C.
Humidty should be around 50% - how are you measuring it? If you arent measuring it, START.

 

[dodolah]

My apartment drops well below 65 at night. I have a four foot tall screened enclosure. At night a place the red heat bulb on to offer my cham a means of producing a consistent 65 degrees. The cham moves to an acceptable level of the enclosure to sleep. For me the red heat bulb at night is insurance. Too cold and the cham may suffer. I don't want that.

veiled can withstand 50 F at night.
By then, i think you and your family will probably turn on the heater for the whole house.
So, imho, I don't think red heat bulb is necessarry.

 

[dodolah]

What signs and symptoms can we as chameleon owners look for to ensure our chams are not suffering from MBD?

I too use a compact UVb light during the day, and red heat lamp for night time temps ( it gets cold here and very dry in NH). How does a compact UVb bulb affect a chams eyes? I am aware that Julirs has stated some side affects from the compact bulb but what is really the reason why the bulb causes these issues? Are they giving off a concentrated level of UVb or what? I just want to know before I switch to the long tubes.

here is the site that can explain more about it:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm

 

[kinyonga]

Personally, I wouldn't let a baby veiled's cage temp. go below about 68F at night....just as insurance that it would be okay. It might be possible to survive cold temperatures, but I wouldn't want to risk that it caused illness in the chameleon. Just my opinion...

 

[jukeboxpunk]

yes

Personally, I wouldn't let a baby veiled's cage temp. go below about 68F at night....just as insurance that it would be okay. It might be possible to survive cold temperatures, but I wouldn't want to risk that it caused illness in the chameleon. Just my opinion...

Hence why I have the red night heat lamp. NH is very dry and cold this time of year. My apartment is not very well insulated and is very drafty.

 

[jukeboxpunk]

Fyi

here is the site that can explain more about it:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm

Thank you. This was actually very informative and now I understand the importance of being aware of the bulbs used with reptiles. The CFL's apparently are acceptable if placed at 12" from the actual enclosure; however, this may still cause issues with your reptiles eyes. For the past few days my cham has not been eating and I had no idea that a bulb can cause inappetence. Thank you again for the information on the bulbs. Now I too can help others address which bulbs to buy and not buy.

 

[dodolah]

Personally, I wouldn't let a baby veiled's cage temp. go below about 68F at night....just as insurance that it would be okay. It might be possible to survive cold temperatures, but I wouldn't want to risk that it caused illness in the chameleon. Just my opinion...

Hence why I have the red night heat lamp. NH is very dry and cold this time of year. My apartment is not very well insulated and is very drafty.

Sorry, I was under assumption that Jukeboxpunk's cham is an adult since it is in a 4ft cage.
I knew that Ozzah (the poster of the thread) is the one that have a female baby veiled.

 

[jukeboxpunk]

clarify

Ya my veiled is only 3 months old. Yes and I do have him in a 4 foot enclosure now. I know it is bigger than what is required; but chams in the wild do not have an enclosure size. So I would assume he would be fine in the four foot enclosure all the way till he is an adult. My bad for any confusion.

 

[Ozzah]

If you need extra heat at night, use a ceramic (does not emit light) bulb or just turn up the central heating in that room so it doesnt go below ~65F/ 18C.

I love how you assume I have central heating.
WTH?