rshewfel
Established Member
So you can't disclose the number of bloodlines coming in?
Minor chameleons
- Thread starter rsepiphyte
- Start date
So you can't disclose the number of bloodlines coming in?
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
I would never call you a dude, Dudes don't come from Canada. I was trying to quote you. I guess that was a fail. sorry.
I'm not saying that anyone is going to, should, or even that it's a good idea. I'd say let's leave that to the smart guys like Chris. I'm simply arguing that it is possible and it is happening with other REPTILES.
On the morals debate…
Have you noticed that this F.minor morals debate smells remarkably similar to ones from the a few years ago on C.Parsonii? Should these two species be held to a similar moral standard?
The way I see it, these are not like the “European bred” parsonii that most of us own. In this case we all actually know the breeder and have witnessed these very babies hatch and grow.
Jason
Except as Kent has stated Furcifer minors have always been much rarer than Calumma parsonii parsonii even when they were legal before the 1995 ban. Along with the fact Calumma parsonii live much longer 15 -25 years not 3-5 years and F2 generation has been proven to breed by Forum member rantroto.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/calumma-parsonii-parsonii-84839/
That means F2 animals for Calumma parsonii could be the ones being provided from some of the sources that are being imported to the USA. While Furcifer minor would have to be at best F4 or F5 generation which is exceedingly unlikely. Plus the fact that Calumma parsonii parsonii are now OFFICIALLY listed as a IUCN Red List Near Threatened species while Furcifer minor is OFFICIALLY listed as an IUCN Red List Endangered species. That is a HUGE difference if you can understand that?
http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/172896/0
http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/8766/0
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
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rshewfel
Established Member
biffle
Avid Member
Yes, the hypocrisy is as crystal clear as an European captive bred Orange eye that turns out to be a yellow lipped.
Understand?
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
I do not own any Yellow Lips or Parsonii from Europe sources understand? And Calumma parsonii parsonii is not an Endangered species understand?
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
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biffle
Avid Member
Glass houses.
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
No a Greenhouse! And No to the True Man Show effect! Finish reading my post.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
Kent67
Retired Moderator
I've had a brief back and forth by pm with Steve and something has come to my attention that I must address. I'm a busy guy these days and I often don't post complete thoughts because I assume everyone is on the same page and in this case, I wrongly thought that it wasn't necessary to acknowledge it.
I don't believe Steve and Bobby are bad guys and I also believe they think they're doing the right thing. Steve and I will be talking by phone sometime soon, and I will still attempt to dissuade him from continuing with the import (fair warning, Steve), but I don't want my attitude towards this particular shipment to affect or influence future shipments they may do where the history of the animals isn't so controversial.
I don't believe Steve and Bobby are bad guys and I also believe they think they're doing the right thing. Steve and I will be talking by phone sometime soon, and I will still attempt to dissuade him from continuing with the import (fair warning, Steve), but I don't want my attitude towards this particular shipment to affect or influence future shipments they may do where the history of the animals isn't so controversial.
leedragon
Chameleon Enthusiast
If I may pop in thats is true, wha it have been said, you can not save a species by keeping it in captivity you may conserved for a while but not save it, the species and its ecosystem counts as one individual if the ecosystem where this animals are gone then the animals will be gone too, where would you release the offspring of you captivity breed animals if the wild madagascar have been transform into farms?
there is an example with the tuatara, there were some in zoo, but they where rapidly been killed off in nature by cats and rats, so new zealand cleaned off some islands of cats and rats where the animals were released, now they have a chance of salvation.
if you really want to save the species, the people who wants them should try to find a way to conserve their home.
there is no really a way around it.
there is an example with the tuatara, there were some in zoo, but they where rapidly been killed off in nature by cats and rats, so new zealand cleaned off some islands of cats and rats where the animals were released, now they have a chance of salvation.
if you really want to save the species, the people who wants them should try to find a way to conserve their home.
there is no really a way around it.
biffle
Avid Member
I'm not sure that anyone claimed that they were going to try and save the species.
This is argument about the morality of importing a threatened species even if it's 100% Cites documented and approved.
leedragon
Chameleon Enthusiast
it was implied that by keeping them in captivity it couöd be a wayu of sving them, and I am talking about species in general not just minors.
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biffle
Avid Member
CITES has a documented history of this bloodline and has approved this export/import. shouldn't we trust CITES?
RyU
New Member
I would have to agree with this post. I haven't read every post but I believe the argument falls under personal morals. Unfortunately, everyone has a different view on this, but to the best of my knowledge, this shipment has been approved by CITES. If it hasn't or, if it's fraudulent, the shipment will be confiscated.
As part of the moral aspect of it, if it is a legal shipment, and someone can afford to pay for it, who are we to judge them for what they do with their time and money? I know of plenty of people that would point their fingers at all of us for keeping these animals in cages all their lives, but is it their business? no.
Just my two cents, I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here.
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Should we trust CITES if they are allowing endangered species to be traded openly by hobbyist? These serve no academic purpose or conservation purpose or scientific purpose? The Chameleon Forums has openly had conversations about cleaning up the reptile hobby from illegal imports or under the radar import and imports that threaten endangered species for the conservation of species and this import seems to go against those past conversations. Have we forgotten what we were preaching?
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
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biffle
Avid Member
Curious. You listed three conditions. Which of the three does this shipment violate?
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
When you have read my entire post competently then I am going to answer your question. Not just divide my post to the segment you want to hear about.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
biffle
Avid Member
Sorry if I offended you by changing the post. I found your first two points to be clear and right to the point so felt they didn't need to be repeated. I didn't follow the third point. It sounded like you are insinuating that the shipment is some how illegal, under the radar, and that this import threatens an endangered species. I don't belive that any of those conditions apply to this specific shipment.
It's obviously not illegal, it's obviously not under the radar, and as long as CITES is strictly followed, I don't see how this shipment of captive breed chameleons are endangering wild animals.
Again... I'm not arguing the morality of it, everyone is allowed thier opnion. I'm just saying that a lot of false accusations, incorrect assumptions, and misdirections have clouded the morals discussion.
It's obviously not illegal, it's obviously not under the radar, and as long as CITES is strictly followed, I don't see how this shipment of captive breed chameleons are endangering wild animals.
Again... I'm not arguing the morality of it, everyone is allowed thier opnion. I'm just saying that a lot of false accusations, incorrect assumptions, and misdirections have clouded the morals discussion.
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