Minor chameleons
- Thread starter rsepiphyte
- Start date
leedragon
Chameleon Enthusiast
correct me if I am wrong Jeremy, but isn´t you point:
here we have a highly endangered species and is just going to be sold to the public as an ornamentation for their living room, and a such species should be sold just to some kind of preservation organizations,regardless of the legal status i may have?
here we have a highly endangered species and is just going to be sold to the public as an ornamentation for their living room, and a such species should be sold just to some kind of preservation organizations,regardless of the legal status i may have?
biffle
Avid Member
Is it fair to say that this is another assumption? Is it fair to assume and judge another's intentions especially when we have not talked with them or even know who they are?
leedragon
Chameleon Enthusiast
do you mean my question about my interpretation of jerry's position in this question or scenario I put as example of what may end up happen?
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I hesitate to raise this heated discussion/debate once more but I did have a point to make regarding the morality of bringing in a species on the protected list as a hobby.
If, as was the case for rhinos, the animal's place on the endangered species list was due to poaching specifically for that animal then I agree that by removing a breeding animal from its habitat or supporting the movement of a breeding animal from its habitat is wrong.
If, however, that animal is endangered because of deforestation or the destruction of its habitat than I am for hobby breeding because deforestation is not likely to change in developing nations and rather than see the species go extinct entirely it would be nice to preserve them as some have done as captive populations to be released later (if possible) in preserves.
If, as was the case for rhinos, the animal's place on the endangered species list was due to poaching specifically for that animal then I agree that by removing a breeding animal from its habitat or supporting the movement of a breeding animal from its habitat is wrong.
If, however, that animal is endangered because of deforestation or the destruction of its habitat than I am for hobby breeding because deforestation is not likely to change in developing nations and rather than see the species go extinct entirely it would be nice to preserve them as some have done as captive populations to be released later (if possible) in preserves.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
Do you have any understanding of CITES and how their permits work?
CITES is the Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species. It is an agreement among nations. If a nation breaks CITES rules, there are serious ramifications. It deals with international trade of endangered species. It doesn't eliminate it, just regulate it.
Many, many species of animals are classified as endangered. Every parrot except budgies and cockatiels are listed as CITES Appendix I or Appendix II. Besides CITES, the US has their own lists (ESA, WBA) that will require permits to move across borders.
US Fish and Wildlife does not question another nation's CITES Manager's permits. They accept them at face value. They may have additional requirements, above and beyond just the appropriate import/export/re-export CITES documents, but that is only for CITES I (the most critically endangered classification) species and birds I think. For example, I just imported an ivory scupture into the US. I think elephant ivory has to be the most regulated animal/animal product to move across borders into or out of the US. I needed CITES re-export documents from the exporting country and I needed all kinds of documents to satisfy US Fish and Wildlife, including affidavits tracing the origins of the piece.
It is my understanding that the species discussed in this thread is a CITES Appendix II species, which isn't a big deal to cross borders with. CITES I ivory--now that's a nightmare.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
I started to address this but got side tracked.
CITES is not an organization. It is an agreement signed by nations. It is the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species.
In the US, the CITES Manager is a part of US Fish and Wildlife. In Canada, CITES is under the umbrella of Environment Canada. The CITES Manager is part of a nation's government.
Member nations meet every few years.
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
What I am attempting to state is that we have conservation programs. The trade of endangered species or certain kinds of Ivory is only going to contribute to the demise of these highly threatened species if the trade is approached that way (to start a trade of endangered chameleons with no conservation programs or promote the ivory industry when elephant populations are being slaughtered and not even close to being managed).
By all means if you want if you want all of your resources to go extinct Elephants or Chameleons keep approaching the trade the trade in a non sustainable way the you are and export your endangered species or Ivory. Without appropriate management they won't last long.
CITES is an organization made up of members from parties from around the world.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
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Ivory requires the death of the elephant. A better example would be people who were taking lion cubs and raising them.
Either way, the chameleon's aren't near extinct due to the hobby trade. Their habitat is being deforested which means when the trees are gone, so are they.
If that is the case, I would think people would want to see them somewhere even it is in a private home rather than be gone from the world forever.
Montium
New Member
Drama, there are a ton of hypocrites in this thread. I'll just leave this here. Who says your version of " moral " is the right one. Sounds like most of the people in this thread like to hear themselves talk. Considering some of the naysayers took in illegal animals themselves it's amusing at best for them to try to take some moral high ground. It's probably time to find another place to talk chameleons as the drama queens have soured this place.
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Ivory can come from natural death or some kind of hunted ivory.
Your statement is not logical at all. If you are collecting chameleons while deforestation is going on you are contributing to the decline of the species. Your statement makes no attempt to conserve the species or look after the species best interest at all. If these species species are on the brink of extinction they do not belong in a hobbyist collectors home, they belong in the wild, in a preserve, a zoological society or with a legitimate conservation program. As well most wild caught animals do not make good pets let alone endangered species. As stated before I would look at species that are less threatened than endangered species and allow conservationist management to take care of their jobs. If not your just adding to the problem not contributing to the solution.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
biffle
Avid Member
I found this to be an interesting read.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/breeding-experience-furcifer-minor-65093/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/breeding-experience-furcifer-minor-65093/
A simple search shows that you have flip flopped on this issue. Seem not to long ago
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Then after all the theory and talk I graduated college and had a job with a nonprofit that is devoted to the recovery of an endangered species. It is called I have matured as an adult. Working with endangered species that have not got conservation programs or suspect CITES paperwork is something I cannot condone. I place there species survival over the hobby.
There are similar species to Furcifer minor that are not endangered species. Why do you need to have Furcifer minor before conservation is done?
Another good topic, there are two popular endangered species that are CITES legal to keep now that I am reluctant to keep Kinyongia matschiei and Kinyongia multituberculata. However these species have got conservation going on in the wild. However if you want to keep them in the hobby we should have breeding programs going for both.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
They aren't collecting while deforestation is going on. They are breeding in captivity from what I've read. However, my point is that we are speaking of the reality of developing nations. They will continue to deforest regardless of what wildlife is there. The few hobby collectors buying captive bred sadly are nothing compared to the people who require that land and trees for other reasons. Your saying that people shouldn't buy exotic pets won't change that.
What could change preservation efforts is people seeing them, learning to love them, and pulling money together to try and buy land to preserve them.
That doesn't happen without the "seeing them" part. We barely care about humans overseas that we don't see, much less lizards.
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Then lets have a look at endangered species in Eco Tourist Video or Natural History Video's (such as "The Chameleons of Madagascar" or "Primeval Island Madagascar"), Arkive, Books, or Magazines of these species in the wild until these species have recovered to the where their existence is not a concern. Then allow trade of these species to keepers in the hobby.
People trying to breed these species long term has been attempted many times and many of these Madagascar species are known for their difficulty to breed. To say hobbyist have the time or expertise to restore populations abroad on a normal schedule is naive. We should be just happy to breed the legal quota species that we have got. They are difficult enough to breed. Captive breeding programs to restore populations normally are a last resort and if we have to resort to captive breeding programs support larger conservation program or zoological society's that have the resources and time to properly take care of the job.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
Most people are frightened of reptiles and don't really care about them. Think what you will, but Steve Irwin did more with his program to get people to care about crocodiles and reptiles than any boring wildlife program. I didn't particularly care about them until I began to visit a friend that had them and learned not to be afraid.
I was quite willing to give money to whales, tigers, and other mammal preservation societies because you relate everything to your dog or cat.
People who love reptiles or grow up with a fascination with them from their youth don't understand the emotional triggers of other people who would just as easily throw a rock at one of them than to want to send money to preserve them.
My point is that part of preservation of a species is individual relationships with them. To those who know nothing of chameleons they think nothing of preserving individual species. One lost locale of panther is nothing. One less type of furcifer won't ruin their day. They are one step above a cockroach to the majority of people.
I know because I didn't like reptiles at all until a few years ago. I gave money to gorilla preserves and tiger programs because I liked those animals. Without Steve Irwin and my friend Brian introducing me to his lizard I really wouldn't have cared what happens to them.
And not to keep nagging about this particular point, but rhino horns were poached because people think it makes them sexually profound. People poach ivory for its beauty. Other animals are taken for their furs. Chameleons are not taken for shoes, for libidos, or for any mass produced item. IF they are poached it is in very small numbers comparatively. They are near extinct because of loss of habitat, not collectors.
Having people breeding rare species at home does not deter people from saving them in the wild nor does it induce poaching since there are just not that many collectors, if anything it makes them more prone to want to save them.
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
You obviously do not care about conserving chameleons in the wild if you value the hobby over the a species existence. As well your statement is a moot point people can have an education about reptiles (chameleons) and wildlife on Madagascar by learning about its wildlife from chameleons that are not endangered species. I say keep the endangered species in the wild where they belong and allow conservation programs to preform their job and restore these endangered populations. If you do not and collect these species your undermining conservation efforts. There have been Parrot species that have gone extinct from loss of habitat and collection for the pet hobby just to name some the Glaucous Macaw, Spix Macaw (extinct in the wild), and Cuban Macaw. Many chameleon species are in the same situation and could easily be lead to a path towards extinction. I say learn from our conservation errors in the past, especially if we want these species as animals in the hobby, and allow conservationist to conserve these species and their habitat. That way we actually have a shot/opportunity at conserving these species in the wild and in the hobby long term. Who wants a species for 10 years when theoretically if the job is done properly in the form of preserves and other conserved habitat we can keep a rare and exotic species for 100 years plus.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
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I don't believe that is what I stated at all. It is not mutually exclusive. I can like both chocolate and vanilla ice cream or dislike both. You can want to save creatures in the wild and also understand that by having them in hobby and zoo environments you are likewise helping to do the former.
There are small numbers of chameleon enthusiasts compared to whale or wolf conservationists so we alone cannot save them in the wild UNLESS people who are not into reptiles, not into chameleons learn to love them.
How do you learn to love them? By seeing them.
They'll want to save the pretty ones or the cuter ones. It's why people will put more money to saving dolphins than sharks even though sharks in some areas and some species are poached to near extinction for their fins.
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Why do you feel they are? Their habitat is being destroyed causing the death of many of that species. The few that would be poached for a finite small group of collectors is arguably not the fittest anyway (ones to evade capture). Again, if this were a huge community of people collecting this species or if it had broad demand as do tiger bones, rhino horns, shark fins, etc. I would be more in accord with you, but it is not.
They will likely become extinct from deforestation and without captive bred reintroduction at a later date you will see them no longer exist on this earth--not that this is an option at this point, just that this is a developing nation who does not have the "luxury" of caring for lizards when people need food, shelter, etc.
I guess I'm saying that you can do both--preserve their habitat by buying land (nature conservancy approach) or help to provide a sustainable population for zoos and edus.
Cheers!
GCash
Avid Member
As much as I would weep to see any species go extinct for one reason or another in nature, even though I know specific niches blink in and out of existence constantly on a large enough timeline and human encroachment sadly plays a significant role, the animals are endangered in their natural habitat. If left completely alone, it could go either way, more often than not towards extinction I would guess. I also believe the answer lies in a dual approach. Habitat must be saved to continue the natural beauty of a species survival (Huge Thanks to those who contribute!) while it doesn't hurt to preserve a species in captivity just in case. There are seed banks for a reason, same principle. Not saying they should be subjected to the "pet" trade, but scientific and governmental institutions can't steward them all. One of the niches that happen to be blinking into existence at the moment, albeit less grandure than the ones in nature, are the enclosures the successful and dedicated keepers are maintaining. Way to grow! Keep up the good work. Thanks for helping us see and understand what we'd miss if they were only in the wild.
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Thanks for mentioning that topic. That is another ideal to strive for an alignment or balance of healthy captive populations and at the same time healthy wild populations of chameleons.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
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