My dude is not feeding normally

[hammerhead]

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - Panther Cham, Male. 8 months
Handling - 2x a week
Feeding - Crickets, Silkies, Supers.. ,
Supplements - Repashy plus LoD. Used everyday on Crickets..
Watering - Auto Mist king 90 sec 4x a day.. I have not seen him drink since I noticed this issue.
Fecal Description -1 dropping that was watery since this issue... Before normal droppings.

Cage Info:

Cage Type - Dragon 48x24
Lighting - T5 4 Bulb with 1 UVB 5.0.. 7am -7PM
Temperature - 75-90 bottom to top. 70f night time temp.. Digital meter
Humidity - 40-60 digital
Plants - Pathos
Placement - Living room, I use 2 small usb fans, no vents, Nobody but me here. 50" to top?.
Location - CALIFORNIA


Its been about 1.5 weeks since I noticed this issue.. My Cham is not acting like he normally does when he eats. What I noticed is he is making what looks like a swallowing motion when food is near. Opens his mouth a bit and swallows multiple times. Starts to open his mouth to shoot and stops. I'm guessing he's tongue is bothering him?. Its taking awhile before he will shoot his tongue out. He is not eating his crickets like he use to. Will not take anything from my hand like he use to. I've been able to get him to eat small silkies but he still does that swallowing thing with multiple attempts. Not seeing any poop is starting to worry me. I do not see anything abnormal on him. Acting normal other than when he eats. Here's some pics. I got some Reptaid , Liquid Calcium,Magnesium Supplement, Multi Vitamin Powder on the way. Reading the forums says most likely a Calcium imbalance?. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[nightanole]

The tongue warmup seems normal to me. The multiple open mouth but not fire seems normal to me. He is becoming and adult and when that happens food intake will drop by 3/4 or more. Ive seen them go from a dozen crickets per day at peak growth, to a dozen crickets per week.

He may be getting his adult personality. And for some that personality is "id rather starve than move for a feeder".

Supplements - Repashy plus LoD. Used everyday on Crickets..

If you are using this on every feeder he ever eats, you certainly do not want MORE supplements. The D3 alone is 10x higher than stickytonguefarms every day indoor formula. More chams get ill from over supplementing than under, other than MBD. And crickets have a massive surface area, and they eat a lot of them. It takes 10 crickets to get the same nutrition as one big dubia for example.

Id start by reducing your supplement sched to either half your feeders, or every other feeding.

If you bought from a breeder, i would ask what they use on their adults. You may find they have a different supplement schedule that will work better for you vs generic.

Signs of tongue/mouth problems are "misses" and bubbles/drooling and "popping" noises coming from him trying to breath through his mouth. Hesitation is not a problem sign.

 

[hammerhead]

I appreciate the help. Ares was acquired from Kammerflage.. They use Repashy plus on there crickets.. They dont list any other supplement. I asked here what was the best Supplement to use LoD was what others used. I do have Repashy plus with no D I can use instead?. He has been getting 10 crickets a day. Lately I'm finding many dead on the bottom. I try to use Silkies when there available.. From what Ive read they are the best nutritional feeder to use. There not always available like crickets are. They cost allot more. I've tried Dubia's he wont touch them. Your post makes me feel better that there's no issues to be concerned about . For me Id rather ask when I see something Ive not seen before than not ask and it end up being a health issue. I can reduce to 5 crickets a day since he isn't eating like he use to.. I have a few videos of this behavior but cant upload them here.
Thanks again

 

[nightanole]

I appreciate the help. Ares was acquired from Kammerflage.. They use Repashy plus on there crickets.. They dont list any other supplement. I asked here what was the best Supplement to use LoD was what others used. I do have Repashy plus with no D I can use instead?. He has been getting 10 crickets a day. Lately I'm finding many dead on the bottom. I try to use Silkies when there available.. From what Ive read they are the best nutritional feeder to use. There not always available like crickets are. They cost allot more. Your post makes me feel better that there's no issues to be concerned about . For me Id rather ask when I see something Ive not seen before than not ask and it end up being a health issue. I can reduce to 5 crickets a day since he isn't eating like he use to.. I have a few videos of this behavior but cant upload them here.
Thanks again

Again i would start to either offer only half the feeders powdered, or reduce powdering to every other feeding. If you switch to bigger feeders you can powder every feeder, since odds are he will only eat 2-3 adult dubia per week as an adult.

As far as silkies being the best nutritional feeder, that is mixed logic.

Lets say you had a pet human and wanted 100g of protein and wanted to raise them on a vegetarian diet. "The best/highest protein per calorie" is kale at 4.3grams per 49 cals. Your pet human would need 7 pounds of kale per day

Silkies are bags of water. So yes they are high in protein and calcium, per calorie, and low in fat, but the caloric content is so low its like you drinking vitamin water.

 

[hammerhead]

Silkies are much better than Crickets in Nutritional value. Ive looked at the data, its not hard to find. As I said Ares wont touch Dubias. I would use them if he would. I have range of Cricket sizes from full adults to 1/2". They are the main feeder. I try to always have Silkies on hand without breeding them myself. I do appreciate the feedback that In your opinion there's no issues with my dude.

 

[nightanole]

Silkies are much better than Crickets in Nutritional value. Ive looked at the data, its not hard to find. As I said Ares wont touch Dubias. I would use them if he would. I have range of Cricket sizes from full adults to 1/2". They are the main feeder. I try to always have Silkies on hand without breeding them myself. I do appreciate the feedback that In your opinion there's no issues with my dude.

I stare at a mulberry tree all day long at work. I get a $10-15 set of eggs each year and have silk worm season for about 6 weeks during the summer

Though management questions why i throw a bunch of leaves in a trash can next to the air compressor each day.

 

[Hashtag ChamLife]

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - Panther Cham, Male. 8 months
Handling - 2x a week
Feeding - Crickets, Silkies, Supers.. ,
Supplements - Repashy plus LoD. Used everyday on Crickets..
Watering - Auto Mist king 90 sec 4x a day.. I have not seen him drink since I noticed this issue.
Fecal Description -1 dropping that was watery since this issue... Before normal droppings.

Cage Info:

Cage Type - Dragon 48x24
Lighting - T5 4 Bulb with 1 UVB 5.0.. 7am -7PM
Temperature - 75-90 bottom to top. 70f night time temp.. Digital meter
Humidity - 40-60 digital
Plants - Pathos
Placement - Living room, I use 2 small usb fans, no vents, Nobody but me here. 50" to top?.
Location - CALIFORNIA


Its been about 1.5 weeks since I noticed this issue.. My Cham is not acting like he normally does when he eats. What I noticed is he is making what looks like a swallowing motion when food is near. Opens his mouth a bit and swallows multiple times. Starts to open his mouth to shoot and stops. I'm guessing he's tongue is bothering him?. Its taking awhile before he will shoot his tongue out. He is not eating his crickets like he use to. Will not take anything from my hand like he use to. I've been able to get him to eat small silkies but he still does that swallowing thing with multiple attempts. Not seeing any poop is starting to worry me. I do not see anything abnormal on him. Acting normal other than when he eats. Here's some pics. I got some Reptaid , Liquid Calcium,Magnesium Supplement, Multi Vitamin Powder on the way. Reading the forums says most likely a Calcium imbalance?. Any help would be appreciated.

So to me:
-Watery stool is common with worms, they're full of water. Usually see this with hornworms, but it just sounds like he NEEDS less of them. He may WANT more, but that's different. If the stool hasn't been watery - or to the opposite side, orange or yellowish - then it isn't too terrible of a deal.

-Tongue... well that could be any number of things. Crickets, hornworms, silkworms, etc. all can bite. Its *possible* something bit his tongue. Another thing with crickets specifically is they are actually really sharp/spikey/pokey. Their legs in particular. [This is why I dropped crickets personally] Legs, believe it or not, can become lodged in the soft flesh of a cham mouth. Another possibility is that he bit his own tongue.... don't laugh, it happens! My friend fed his veiled a large hornworm that wouldn't let go of the branch. His cham bit it's own tongue and spent weeks healing. **the "herp-a-derp" or misfiring is a common thing with chams, but it sounded to me you were describing something different. Misfires they tend to hunch up and open their mouth and start their tongue a few times... a swallowing motion is more visible in the throat and less mouth?

- Not seeing your cham drink... this is probably the last thing to worry about. Worms are FULL of water. I think of my chams they maybe "drink" once a week. Most of their water comes from their food sources. One of my females I have yet to see even lick a branch. Of course they're all on a mist king and I also occasionally run drippers or hand spray.

Overall, keep an eye on the poop! You may actually get some answers if you post a few poo-pics, lol. I am very proud to admit I have made a GIF of a "proper poop" so my wife knows what to look for =P.

Best wishes!!

Edit:
Supplements.... honestly this is all over the place. I use Supercal No D and LoD. Most of them get NoD and my more crabby/less docile females get the LOD. Now the reasoning is because everyone goes outside when I get a chance. If you don't take your guy outside, I think you're find with the LoD. If you plan to let him have sunshine fairly often, I'd switch to NoD. The excess calcium won't harm him any time soon (unless you just cake it on)... dust every cricket btw. The idea is that the amount of calcium to phosphorus is off on the actual cricket and the idea is to balance that with the calcium... or at least that's the latest science I have.

 

[hammerhead]

I have some panacur, fenbendazol and Reptaid. I dont know how to dose these other than the reptaid. I guess I should make a vet apt. I did see him drink yesterday. He isn't misfiring, look like hes licking his chops.. Mouth only opens a bit, then he swallows. I also noticed a soar on his foot. I still dont see any poop.

 

[The Wild One]

A sore like what?

 

[kinyonga]

Have you been able to look in his mouth? It sound like something is hurting him or uncomfortable.

 

[Graves923]

Are you gutloading the feeders?

 

[JacksJill]

The Repashy plus has more D3 than the LoD read the label carefully.

 

[kinyonga]

Have you tried hand feeding him while he's drinking?
Drip water slowly on the end of his nose...as he opens and closes his mouth to drink...stick a cricket head first part way into his mouth so his teeth chomp down on it.

 

[hammerhead]

A sore like what?

After a good check it was just some old skin from a shed..

Have you been able to look in his mouth? It sound like something is hurting him or uncomfortable.

I tried to do that today. I noticed some lose skin on his lower lip. I got it off. I cant get his mouth open. I was a bit paranoid i would hurt him

Are you gutloading the feeders?

Absolutely, I use Bug Burger for crickets, Supers are getting peaches, Silkies get chow.

Have you tried hand feeding him while he's drinking?
Drip water slowly on the end of his nose...as he opens and closes his mouth to drink...stick a cricket head first part way into his mouth so his teeth chomp down on it.

I have not tried this.. When in hand he is not a happy camper.. Holding him still is a chore. I have some reptaid I want to give him. I cant get the dropper into his mouth. He's stressed to try anything else today. I will try again tomorrow.


He is eating 1" silkworms . He had 2 so far today. I did notice his tongue looks dark. It's not out long enough to get a good look. Hes def taking extra effort to shoot. I think this is the problem.. Any ideas?.

 

[kinyonga]

Not wanting to shoot the tongue out can mean it's injured or infected. It could also be a nutrient imbalance...but then you're giving him supplements. There are a couple of other things it can be too.

I asked if you tried dripping water on the end of his nose and then sticking an insect between his teeth...you said..."I have not tried this.. When in hand he is not a happy camper.. Holding him still is a chore. I have some reptaid I want to give him. I cant get the dropper into his mouth. He's stressed to try anything else today. I will try again tomorrow"...why would he be in your hand...he should be standing on a branch in your cage while you drip the water on his nose. Also be very careful trying to use a syringe to give him things...if you get it into his lungs you could kill him.

This dripping water on the nose also works to get the end of the syringe in his mouth...bring the syringe up from below his sight line slowly while he's drinking??

You said..."He has been getting 10 crickets a day. Lately I'm finding many dead on the bottom"...this could be from bad aim which could be an indication of a nutrient imbalance.

 

[hammerhead]

AS For feeding him by hand he will not take anything fro my hand. I have tried misting him directly he will close his eyes and sit there. He doesn't open his mouth. This was done in cage.. When he was in hand I was trying to get some reptaid into his mouth and failed. I have pretty much all the necessary suppliants. Rarly does he get something not dusted. Im gonna start focusing on 1 thing at a time. To many what ifs I cant keep up... For now I will focus on infected tongue.. I watched a bunch of vids how to admin meds to Chams. Its looks pretty easy. The mouth doesn't need to be open. Pulling up the lip to expose his teeth and then drip medication into the mouth is what I saw. What type of medication should I look for?. I have Reptaid and Rot Guard on hand. I will give Ares a few drops of reptaid tomorrow. I found some other stuff but im not confident how to use it, Says for dogs/horses. He is eating which makes me feel better but I can tell he is hesitating to shoot. I have not seen any long distance shots in a while. He also gets pretty close before he shoots. .

Id like to thank everyone for there help.. Id be bummed if I lost him. For now it doesn't seem like a emergency. Im redoing his cage.. I'm removing all that wood and fake plants. Only using Bamboo and a few fake branches that can bend. There will be 3 pathos plants in the redone cage ..



I found this site with medications used and dosages.. Im still not comfortable doing it until I speak to a vet.. Ive sent emails to a few asking if they treat reptiles.. I have not received any replies.
http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html

 

[Clayton0520]

I’m no professional by any means but I wouldn’t worry too much. My male who came from the Kammers at about 7 months of having him slowed WAY down on his eating. He also went to pooping once’s every 7 or 8 days. Iv also never seen him drink in the 18 months iv had him as well as my female who iv had for 4 months. When my male was young he used to immediately get ready when he saw me with the repti shaker and would “hut” like crazy till he ate everything I put in his cage. Now he just hangs around and waits for the feeders to come to him. Every now and then he will go on the hunt if none comes his way. Iv used Repashy calcium plus on every other feeding his whole life with no problems. With that being said I also have a solarmeter 6.5 that I used to make sure he was getting enough UVB. The Kammers recommend dusting every feeding with Repash Calcium Plus and have down this for years with great results. As long as when he poops it looks good and he’s not loosing weight I personally wouldn’t worry too much. It’s stressful in the beginning I have been there my friend but they will definitely show signs of being sick or ill husbandry if that’s the case.

 

[kinyonga]

you said..."AS For feeding him by hand he will not take anything fro my hand"... I'm not suggesting feeding him by hand exactly...the idea is to sneak the insect into his mouth while its opening and shutting while he's drinking.

You said..." I have tried misting him directly he will close his eyes and sit there. He doesn't open his mouth. This was done in cage"...dripping water on the end of the nose is different than misting him. It usually does not make them shut their eyes. You have to do it for quite a while to stimulate the drinking response though. If his mouth is really bothering him then he might not drink though.

You said..."When he was in hand I was trying to get some reptaid into his mouth and failed"...not surprised...that would likely stress him out.

You said..."For now I will focus on infected tongue"... You don't even know for sure that the tongue is infected.

younsaid..."What type of medication should I look for?"...until you know hat there is a bacteria involved I wouldn't be using any meds unless a vet tells you it's necessary. You don't even know what bacteria you're treating...if any.

You said..."I have Reptaid and Rot Guard on hand. I will give Ares a few drops of reptaid tomorrow. I found some other stuff but im not confident how to use it, Says for dogs/horses"...reptaid is not a medication and the one for the horses needs to be converted to a proper dosage for the chameleon going by the weight of the chameleon and the strength of the medication.

You said..."He is eating which makes me feel better but I can tell he is hesitating to shoot. I have not seen any long distance shots in a while. He also gets pretty close before he shoots"...not surprised by this at all.

youmsaid..."For now it doesn't seem like a emergency"...chameleons have a way of going from not seeming like an emergency to serious in a short time because they hide as much of what's wrong with them as they can. A good exotics vet could run tests and inspect him to see what's going on and get him on a good course back to recovery before he does a sudden decline and dies. I hope you can find one soon.

I hope you get it figured out and he will be back to normal soon.

 

[hammerhead]

I appreciate any suggestions . You dont need to keep rewriting what I just posted. Please just post your suggestions. I can understand what you want to tell me without re reading what I posted. Here in the usa we cant buy meds without a prescription. De wormers are pretty much the only thing I can get without it. Until I see a vet I use whats on hand. I do have a vet apt tomorrow.

I gave him 2 drops of reptaid on Tue and 2 drops yesterday.. His tongue doesn't look dark today. After I see the vet I will know more. I dont think he is having any health issues after seeing him today. He is just not eating heavy anymore. Im gonna back off on the amounts he gets. I need to start a new thread about keeping crickets alive.

 

[kinyonga]

Sorry but that's the way I do it to try to make it clear why I'm saying what I'm saying....not just for you but for others. It is what it is.