my translucent veiled

[lumbasammler]

(as a side note, not trying to argue, start an argument, or force my opinion, simply stating my opinion in what I hope is a friendly debate )

You´re absolutely right with that, not a personal thing.
I think that we do by far not know enough about how exactly chameleons communicate with colors to "support" a kind of disabled form like that, would be kind of like creating dogs with no tail because they can then not break tings with them or because we think it´s more beautiful.

 

[camimom]

You´re absolutely right with that, not a personal thing.
I think that we do by far not know enough about how exactly chameleons communicate with colors to "support" a kind of disabled form like that, would be kind of like creating dogs with no tail because they can then not break tings with them or because we think it´s more beautiful.

Ummm.. about dogs with no tails.... haha
ive raised german shorthair pointers, and they get their tails docked for breed standards... and so the tails dont knock the bushes when hunting and scare the birds away.

But i do agree we simply dont know enough to know if this particular mutation is harming or just a mutation.

 

[camimom]

isn't it a defective trait that people selectively breed. either way to each their own I guess.


to op do you have pictures of the parents?

Yes. it was a genetic defect found in wild chams, that was then bred out in captive ones.

fl chams sells them regularly.

 

[JackP308]

Ummm.. about dogs with no tails.... haha
ive raised german shorthair pointers, and they get their tails docked for breed standards... and so the tails dont knock the bushes when hunting and scare the birds away.

But i do agree we simply dont know enough to know if this particular mutation is harming or just a mutation.

that just sounds terrible yea chop a dogs tail off so its are advantage to hunt:roll eyes: WTF is wrong with humans LOL but as I said to each their own seems . I don't think id be buying any chams from FL CHAMS anytime soon

 

[camimom]

that just sounds terrible yea chop a dogs tail off so its are advantage to hunt:roll eyes: WTF is wrong with humans LOL but as I said to each their own seems . I don't think id be buying any chams from FL CHAMS anytime soon

Lots of dog breeds have medical procedues done for AKC breed standards.
I will not comment on the docking of the tail.
I have not paid to have it done, but every GSP ive owned has had it done.

 

[lumbasammler]

that just sounds terrible yea chop a dogs tail off so its are advantage to hunt:roll eyes: WTF is wrong with humans LOL but as I said to each their own seems . I don't think id be buying any chams from FL CHAMS anytime soon

That´s why such things are strictly forbidden here in Germany.
@camimom: don´t you think that, taking into consideration that we do not really know too much about the ways of communication of chams through colors we should not breed out forms with such deficiencies as translucent veileds have?

 

[pssh]

It's not like we're releasing them back into the wild. They only see other chameleons on OUR terms.

It's not any different than breeding ball pythons and leopard geckos from certain mutations. To each his own.

Lets not compare them to dogs. Dogs were not always dogs either btw.Humans breed things. It's what we do. If you really want to complain about something, complain about how we take wild animals and cage them. In every species but the veiled so far, wild blood needs to be introduced to keep the generations strong.

 

[camimom]

That´s why such things are strictly forbidden here in Germany.
@camimom: don´t you think that, taking into consideration that we do not really know too much about the ways of communication of chams through colors we should not breed out forms with such deficiencies as translucent veileds have?

but then the question becomes, shouldnt we continue to breed and do a study to determine how much coloring influences communcation to better understand just how chams communicate.

 

[lumbasammler]

It's not any different than breeding ball pythons and leopard geckos from certain mutations. To each his own.

Well, i think that communications through colors in chameleons is waaaaaaaaaay different from that in ball pythons or leopard geckos, isn´t it?

You´re right about the dogs, that was not the best example but it´s essentially the same kind of reason behind.

If you really want to complain about something, complain about how we take wild animals and cage them. In every species but the veiled so far, wild blood needs to be introduced to keep the generations strong.

You´re right with that, but just because there are other worse things to complain about doesn´t make this thing better.

 

[okiroo]

but then the question becomes, shouldnt we continue to breed and do a study to determine how much coloring influences communcation to better understand just how chams communicate.

agreed. no one has the eright to say that an animal is wrong for its color. this color came out of a normal female(acording to the OP) and was a fluke! just like other aniamls some are born diffrent. breeding them beacuse they are intersting isnt wrong so like as the animals themselves are strong and happy like their brothers and sisters. FL chams btw sells gr8 chams from what i've seen. them selling translucents is no reason to take your bussiness from them.

on tail docking- yeah im shure they dont like it but they also dont like being nutured and spayed and we dont find anything wrong with that. an animals purpose is to breed and when their fixed we take that away, worse than loseing a tail IMHO(even tho fixing is best for the animals interest in most cases)

 

[lumbasammler]

but then the question becomes, shouldnt we continue to breed and do a study to determine how much coloring influences communcation to better understand just how chams communicate.

You´re right but i guess there are better ways to find that out than breeding animals with irreversible changes in their natural coloration.

 

[okiroo]

You´re right but i guess there are better ways to find that out than breeding animals with irreversible changes in their natural coloration.

irreversible? how so? breed back to "normals" or just keep their gene pool seperate altogether.

 

[pssh]

The intention to breed for this mutation is generally not to prevent the animals from being able to communicate. It is to explore the uniqueness and exploit it. It is the same as it is with ball pythons and leopard geckos.

And again, they only see other chameleons on OUR terms.

 

[camimom]

agreed. no one has the eright to say that an animal is wrong for its color. this color came out of a normal female(acording to the OP) and was a fluke! just like other aniamls some are born diffrent. breeding them beacuse they are intersting isnt wrong so like as the animals themselves are strong and happy like their brothers and sisters. FL chams btw sells gr8 chams from what i've seen. them selling translucents is no reason to take your bussiness from them.

on tail docking- yeah im shure they dont like it but they also dont like being nutured and spayed and we dont find anything wrong with that. an animals purpose is to breed and when their fixed we take that away, worse than loseing a tail IMHO(even tho fixing is best for the animals interest in most cases)

I personally do not see an issue with breeding out the trans coloring. Until someone shows me evidence that this selective breeding is harming them in some way.

I agree. i personally like the tail docking ( I buy high quality dogs, i know sue me cuz i didnt adopt, i make up for it by fostering) its breed appropriate. and if you dont like it, dont buy it.

 

[camimom]

You´re right but i guess there are better ways to find that out than breeding animals with irreversible changes in their natural coloration.

I cant see other ways to determine how coloring affects communication other than breedin gout the color mutations to find out.

 

[okiroo]

I personally do not see an issue with breeding out the trans coloring. Until someone shows me evidence that this selective breeding is harming them in some way.

I agree. i personally like the tail docking ( I buy high quality dogs, i know sue me cuz i didnt adopt, i make up for it by fostering) its breed appropriate. and if you dont like it, dont buy it.

i like it one most dogs but pitbulls are much cuter with their ears down i perfur pures aswell in most animals but i have nothing but mutt cats that i've been feeding and getting fixed around the house(parents house and technically their cats but im getting them fixed )

 

[camimom]

The intention to breed for this mutation is generally not to prevent the animals from being able to communicate. It is to explore the uniqueness and exploit it. It is the same as it is with ball pythons and leopard geckos.

And again, they only see other chameleons on OUR terms.

i agree.
Now, if we were breeding the trans coloring, and then releasing into the wild, TOTALLY different story.
but as we keep chams seperate unless being bred, i dont see a major issue in breeding for a particular color.

besides, we dont even know if the trans coloring is interfereing with their communication anyway.

 

[okiroo]

I cant see other ways to determine how coloring affects communication other than breedin gout the color mutations to find out.

females and males may find the bright coloration(neon almost) of the trans to be more appealing and any regular joe. a gr8 way to test this? get a large test ground of males and female(regular) and the same size test group or trans and introduce, mabey females prefur tans but males dont ect. that would be very interesting to see someone do

 

[okiroo]

i agree.
Now, if we were breeding the trans coloring, and then releasing into the wild, TOTALLY different story.
but as we keep chams seperate unless being bred, i dont see a major issue in breeding for a particular color.

besides, we dont even know if the trans coloring is interfereing with their communication anyway.

We breed for color anyways... extra red here and a little blue their. we are already makeing chams the way we want. there is no natural selection with human breeding programs, we do this to, evenually, make out own breed. someday CB nosey be might not look like a WC nosey be.

 

[camimom]

i like it one most dogs but pitbulls are much cuter with their ears down i perfur pures aswell in most animals but i have nothing but mutt cats that i've been feeding and getting fixed around the house(parents house and technically their cats but im getting them fixed )

I love pits with the ears down.( i feel it gvies them a less aggressive look, not saying they are, but they do have tha tbad rap) but the ears up is cute too.

i have a pure english setter, but a mutt kitty.

everything in life is a double edged sword.

if you buy a purebred dog, you are supposedly 'killing' a pound puppy. but if you buy a pound puppy, then who knows what you got?

no one in life is so altruistic.

you buy this animal because it has pretty colors, but you picked based on that, why not on something else?

no matter what, people will always find something to say about what yu do, or dont do, or thought about doing.

(im not saying anyone here does this, just saying in general)