My Veiled Cham is really weak.
- Thread starter larryecm
- Start date
LindsayG
Avid Member
She's so sweet. I hope everythings works out for her.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
That's great news! I'm glad your vet doesn't want to do surgery--he or she is using good common sense that not all vets use. I've had chameleons in that my vet was itching to operate on because of a probable abscess but said she wouldn't operate because the surgery would kill him if she did. I'm really happy that your vet recognizes that. Not all vets will say no to surgery even when the prognosis with surgery is very very bad. Leave her alone in the laying bin today. Oxytocin is BRUTAL on them. She needs special care after. I hope he gives her some subcutaneous fluids and a calcium injection. I'm at the vet right now with a little girl that has had some issues laying this infertile clutch. I'll check back when I get home. I think you are in good hands. She won't be out of the woods even if she lays her eggs and buries them. Dig her 4 to 5 inch deep starter holes and give her privacy. Great news!
larryecm
New Member
It really does suck - I just found this forum too late. I take a lot of responsibility when I have a pet like this, and it kills me to know that my lack of knowledge did this to her. Of course the Vet said I'm doing better than 99% of the reptile owners he has seen, but that still didn't make me feel much better. I did try though.
Carlton
Chameleon Enthusiast
We know you did. Many other keepers who realize their cham is in trouble either don't care enough to do anything, don't search further for help because "it's just a lizard", keep dreaming that everything will magically work out, or give up when faced with the expense vet care might create. We hear these stories so often, but the way someone listens to what we have to offer says so much. Some people start arguing defensively or just don't "hear" because they don't like what we have to say. Others post once about the problem and disappear forever. Then there's the "can't afford vet care" excuse that's pretty infuriating. I hope she does OK and that the problem was caught early enough! Both of you deserve it.
larryecm
New Member
Good idea on the starter hole. He wasn't sure yet on the Oxytocin, and was going to make a few phone calls and do a little more research before he gave it to her. He really seems to be trying to do the right things, which I respect.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
Don't beat yourself up. I have heard--I don't know if this is fact--but I have heard that some commercially bred veileds are HATCHING with MBD because they are being produced by females who are very poorly nourished for generations. Add producing eggs to an already calcium-deficient chameleon and you have a disaster.
Her being on the ground suggests to me that she was trying to lay the eggs and is now in a very weakened state. Even if she had been fed the correct amount of calcium, just producing eggs can deplete them, especially if they have a large clutch. She might have very low blood calcium levels. Calcium is needed for muscles to function. The oxytocin will force her uterus to contract. It's brutal. Laying will take a lot out of her, and the oxytocin will take a bit more. Maybe a lot more out of her.
She is in a very fragile state. Treat her as if she is critically ill. She might lay those eggs, pack the dirt around them and then up and die on you. Your vet is trying his darndest to not let that happen. I don't think many on the forum realize how risky egg laying is and how hard oxytocin is on them. I don't think it is an option to not give it to her at this point, even if it is hard on her. I suspect she has been in labor a long time and is exhausted. The fluids and calcium will give her a boost.
Once she has laid her eggs, she needs calcium and water. If she comes up and eats and drinks, that's a really good sign. If she looks rough and doesn't eat, she still can come around. Make sure she gets calcium into her after she lays. I had one (not one of the two described below) that had a really tough time for a week after a large clutch but recovered just fine. I was terrified I was going to lose her for the week following her laying. After a week, she perked right up and hasn't looked back.
I've had vets give two of my girls oxytocin. In the first case someone wrote the wrong weight down and she was overdosed, given a high dosage for a chameleon three times her weight. She was carrying 3 times the normal number of eggs. She laid the eggs and stayed in labor for about five days after. I took her back for an xray the next day to be sure she had not eggs. She was a wreck and almost died. She's find and quickly laid a normal clutch a few months after her near disaster. The second female I gave oxytocin to is the one I've been to the vet's today with. She has been in four times with four xrays. The third visit was when we decided to give oxytocin, fluids and calcium. She laid the remaining two eggs in the drive home but stayed in labor the following day (yesterday). She ate and drank a lot yesterday evening when she finally came out of her hole and ate a lot today. She is a very rare chameleon, so I won't take any chances and took her in this morning for one final xray to be sure all the eggs are laid. She looks great.
Please, treat her as if she is critically ill. She's very fragile right now. Good luck.
larryecm
New Member
UPDATE - She stayed with the Vet yesterday afternoon, he fed her some high protein dog food, baby food eggs, with Vitamin A and D supplement mixed in. He also gave her an injection of Calcium. Attached is her x-ray, you can see the eggs and also see that her bones look good. Right before I brought her home, he gave her an Oxytocin injection.
I brought her immediately home, placed in her laying bin, and dug a 4" deep hole. Covered the top, and left her alone. When I checked on her a few hours later, she was asleep on a stick. This morning, she was laying on the ground, asleep.
I'm taking her back to the vet this morning to get her fed again with the high protein dog food and Vitamin mixture. He wants to feed her more this morning, as he was afraid to give her too much yesterday afternoon.
I was really hoping to see she had laid her eggs this morning, but not yet ...
Vet Bill so far: $158.00
I brought her immediately home, placed in her laying bin, and dug a 4" deep hole. Covered the top, and left her alone. When I checked on her a few hours later, she was asleep on a stick. This morning, she was laying on the ground, asleep.
I'm taking her back to the vet this morning to get her fed again with the high protein dog food and Vitamin mixture. He wants to feed her more this morning, as he was afraid to give her too much yesterday afternoon.
I was really hoping to see she had laid her eggs this morning, but not yet ...
Vet Bill so far: $158.00
Attachments
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
If she is not ready to lay those eggs, the oxytocin won't work. Keep up updated.
larryecm
New Member
Just came back from the Vet again. She was more active and perky this morning, and is able to climb a little again. Our Vet gave her another Calcium injection, and force fed her again with the food mixture he made up. She's back in her laying bin now, hoping she'll lay some eggs today!
larryecm
New Member
Yes, learned that this morning from our Vet, who said the same thing.
larryecm
New Member
Update - Still no eggs. She's not really able to move well at all. Little to no strength in her legs. I'm going to hand feed her again today, and get her back to the Vet tomorrow for another feeding and calcium shot. Our Vet is out of town today. I really expected with the two calcium injections and extra Vitamins that her strength would be back up.
I still have her in the laying bin, but she's either not interested, not ready or egg bound. Just a waiting game at this point.
I still have her in the laying bin, but she's either not interested, not ready or egg bound. Just a waiting game at this point.
JGuinan007
Avid Member
I don't understand the high protein dog food I always read animal proteins are so bad for Chameleons and lead to gout and liver damage even from short term feeding? What is the reasoning behind it?
JLP474
Member
Just did a lil google searching...looks like if they're emaciated they'll use a high quality(no by-products and no meat/bone meal) dog or cat food to help with adding weight.
jpowell86
Chameleon Enthusiast
Poor little girl. I'm glad to see that you are doing what you can for her.
I honestly can't tell too much from the xray shown, but I'm guessing by the looks of those eggs that they are infertile. She honestly looks egg bound to me and when at this stage, oxytocin isn't always effective.
Did the vet mention anything about being egg bound?
I would also PM the images to @ferretinmyshoes to get a second opinion. You may need to take another course of action for this little girl.
I honestly can't tell too much from the xray shown, but I'm guessing by the looks of those eggs that they are infertile. She honestly looks egg bound to me and when at this stage, oxytocin isn't always effective.
Did the vet mention anything about being egg bound?
I would also PM the images to @ferretinmyshoes to get a second opinion. You may need to take another course of action for this little girl.
Just peeking in between my appointments so will make this brief. She definitely has MBD (her bone density on the x-ray is horrible in addition to having the classic curved limbs and not being able to support her own weight) and she definitely looks egg bound. Her eggs are not shelled yet from the looks of her x-ray and appear to be in the follicular phase still. I think that's what you may have been referring to jpowell rather than truly infertile. With follicles it means they're either too early to be laid, or they're stuck that way and will never actually get shelled enough to be laid. Oxytocin will not be effective at this stage. And she's in no condition to lay right now given her MBD. If she is strong and trying to be somewhat normal you can give it a few weeks of treating her MBD and if at that point her x-ray has not changed (still tight cluster of very round shapes) then she's in follicular stasis and will need surgical removal. If they look a little more spread out and oval rather than round then they might be progressing to shelled eggs that can be laid. But surgery is often needed with these girls because their bodies are too overwhelmed by the MBD to be able to keep everything else normal.
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