Namquensis
- Thread starter Julle
- Start date
djfishygillz
Avid Member
I love these photos they are hilarious. This chameleon has so much personality!
reyesjoshuacruz
Established Member
drool, best of luck to you
Chameleonmaster
Avid Member
congrats, keep us updated on how she's doing.
kameleons jvo
Avid Member
kameleons jvo
Avid Member
Any updates Juha ?
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
They look great!! A species that is on my bucket list of chameleon species I want to work with!
LazardLizard
New Member
If its already been said, my appologies I missed it.
Can we have or get those to the US? Out of curiosity(PM me if you wish) what do those incredable Chameleons sell for on average.
Thanks-
Can we have or get those to the US? Out of curiosity(PM me if you wish) what do those incredable Chameleons sell for on average.
Thanks-
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Unfortunately probably not. The issue is that Ch. namaquensis has not been exported legally since 1998 accorting to CITES trade statistics, and the only specimens that have ever been exported legally that were not from a confiscation (and thus did not go into the trade) were exported to the US. These animals have all deceased and unfortunately there have never been any reexport permits issued for Ch. namaquensis to be exported from the US, so there is no possibility of any legal specimens in the EU that I can see. These animals may be genuine CB in Europe, but technically, even animals that were genuinely bred and born in captivity can be illegal if they can not be traced back fully to legally imported animals, which i see no way they could be. Unfortunately C. namaquensis is a species that is questionable enough legality wise that I would not encourage anyone to try importing specimens from the EU, CB or not, as they could end up in very serious trouble.
Chris
LazardLizard
New Member
Wow indepth, thank you! Never thought about some department attempting a bloodline/parent trace, it would be impossable.
Sad, beautiful Chams!
Thanks again-
Sad, beautiful Chams!
Thanks again-
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Chris
Would there be a way to apply for a special permit to collect specimens lets say twenty pairs to properly start a captive population with legal origins? Your most definitely aware of this, however, as it stands now Chamaeleo namaquensis has an IUCN Red List standing of Least Concern the absolute lowest IUCN ranking and this species habitat of the Namib Desert is not a threatened habitat (which is not the norm for most chameleon species). I'm for pristine ecosystems and businesses with infrastructure, however, if the concept of special permits were allowed and twenty pairs of Chamaeleo namaquensis were collected (ideally to go to known capable chameleon breeders),and along with Chamaeleo namaquensis is now a species that has been proven and documented to breed in captivity, with the possibility of being bred long term as seen with another species in the same genus Chamaeleo calypatratus. This theoretically could prevent demand for unregulated collection in the wild in the future. I know there have been special permits issued for collecting Bradypodion species in South Africa I think something similar could possibly apply here. As well as academically provided specimens world wide for people with interests in reptiles and biology to study that have got origins from a particularly remote region of the world.
Jeremy A. Rich
LazardLizard
New Member
I would deffinatly love to be apart of that if they were split into groups(6-10), and sent to differant breeders to establish bloodlines. Then the breeders could swap some offspring from time to time(full documentation of course for purity/legality), to keep the bloodlines strong.
Tony-
Tony-
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
This would depend entirely on the applicable South African or Namibian Provincial and National authorities and their regulations. Typically these authorities will only allow collection for approved scientific research. Such research typically requires collaboration from local scientists on the project and generally has to significantly benefit the species in the wild. With a species that is listed as Least Concern and for which the legal status of any animals in captivity is clear (likely illegal), I'm not sure a convincing case could be made that would prompt these authorities to allow legal export of specimens for the captive market.
Regarding the previous permits that allowed some Bradypodion to be collected and brought into captivity in the US back in the 90s by Bert Langerwerf, my understanding is that these were scientific permits to study the breeding of this species in captivity. Such scientific permits specify that neither the imported specimens nor their offspring can be sold and are intended for the purpose of the specified research only. My understanding is that he released some of the offspring of the offspring of the animals he imported into the trade. Whether that truly complied with the intent of the conditions of the permit is probably debatable, but the point is, it is not as easy to get permits that would ultimately establish captive breeding populations as one might think or hope.
Chris
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Chris
I would say the best way to base the export permit is on the grounds similar to the situation as seen with Chamaeleo calyptratus on a conservation level and an officially documented level. With the concept/purpose/novel notion to stop a black market collection of Chamaeleo namaquensis before it starts. Simply this being done by properly exporting and legally starting (as they are a species of Least Concern) a captive trade, with animals going to proven breeders. With the grounds of these permits being based as proactive conservation measures as this species is being seen much more in the European markets and even though it is a species of Least Concern could start being targeted more by black market traders which eventually could have immense negative effects on the pristine wildness of the Namib Desert. As seen with Chamaeleo calyptratus, Ch. calyptratus only required a couple exports to start the captive trade of this species world wide, and now this species in its native habitat is not collected at all and is allowed to stay wild without quotas or special permit collections.
As for the Bradypodions I actually was not referring to Berts imports into the USA I was referring to the more regular imports of Bradypodions into Europe. To the best of my knowledge Europe seem to acquire export permits occasionally to export brood stock for Bradypodions into Europe. As for scientific research I never considered chameleons pets to me they are an at home first hand non media bases home experience with biology/herpetology for me. I want to breed Calumma parsonii.
Jeremy A. Rich
Last edited:
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Jeremy,
I don't disagree that in general having a healthy CB population to offset wild collection would be ideal. I think comparing C. namaquensis in captivity to C. calyptratus is incredibly naive though. Chamaeleo namaquensis has been kept in captivity quite a few times in the past by some of the best keepers in the world, including the people who are credited with doing a lot of the work to establish C. calyptratus in captivity. They were able to breed them but were unable to get the babies or adults to survive long term and the ultimate result was always a dismal failure. Just because this time there has been success with the babies surviving does not mean this species is anywhere near as hardy to keep and reproduce as C. calyptratus in captivity, or that the species could be established in any similar manner. There are many chameleon species that have been bred much more consistently and repeatedly that have yet to be successfully established in captivity.
Currently, the legal status of this species in captivity is obvious. By allowing a few legal imports to try and establish viable captive populations, however, you would permanently eliminate any ability for authorities to go after smugglers unless they caught them in the act of smuggling. It is exactly what has caused the black market to be so fruitful in Malagasy chameleon species in Europe. If there was a real track record with this species that actually suggested establishing this species would be any different than the vast majority of other species, I think a case could be made that the risk was worth it. In this case, however, I think you would be very hard pressed to convince the management authorities of South Africa or Namibia that this was a good idea for the species in the wild. I wish it wasn't the case, but I think this is the reality of the situation. You have to have a proven track record to justify risking the ability of these authorities to fully manage the conservation of these species, and we simply do not have that.
As for Bradypodion coming into Europe, most of the influx of Bradypodion blood into the EU follows a path like the laundering of Malagasy chameleon species. The one exception I'm aware of is B. transvaalense, which is a different case because that province has different rules than the rest regarding issuing permits for their export.
Chris
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