Naturalistic Diet

[PetNcs]

Whenever I research range it is vague. I always see "From grassland plains to 3000 feet"
Though I have never seen this in a scientific regional aspect. so that is why I said to my understanding.

 

[PetNcs]

Also know my interest in this is as a hobby. If I could I would set up exactly like there home, with misting linked to real time weather. This is not for the chameleon, I don't think he cares.
It is for me, it is fun.

Use for reference the weather stations in Ibb and Yarim
Rest is on my webpage

 

[CasqueAbove]

Please do not refer to dubious sources that lie as they do not have the info.
go to chameleons.info, you will find several articles there dealing with their biotope including photos
They do not inhabit various biotopes, just ONE.
rhey do NOT inhabit deserts not they live in grassland plains (as there are no in Yemen there), they inhabitspecific montane biotopes that are MUCH colder than yiu imagine
Thisnis their homecountry THiS WEEK

Thank you, I had always doubted this info. It is like the myth I have heard "its a dry region it just gets rain" From looking into the area I quickly realized that this was untrue.
It looks like it is beautiful there.

 

[cyberlocc]

i do notnunderstand why you make it soo complicated. The whole story becomes totally messy...

so you care for beetles more than chameleons in your approach within this topic? So my response is: skip it. Forget the beetles. Are the beetles not good vectors? Ok! DO NOT USE THEM then and no headache.

Pollinator beetles anyway play generally not that significant role as food source as do the major polinators: bees.

and as usual, you bring with every answer a new complication not even waiting before we resolve the previous one.

Flower pollen is different from bee pollen. Of course you are right. But in the process we talk about, namely chameleon ingestion of pollen, itnis merely a valid complication and you must know it!!!

Flower pollen is a pollen from flowers. OK

Bee pollen is a ball of pollen made by young beeswhen they land on a flower. It's a mixture of pollen, saliva, and nectar or honey. Bees carry these balls back to the hive in sacs on their legs and store them in the hive's honeycomb. The pollen then ferments into “bee bread,” which feeds a bee colony. (Cited from wikipedia)

so,chameleons ingest a pollinator bee:
It contains flower pollen and two pellets of bee pollen which is recently (just seconds or minutes ago) collected flower pollen put tohether with saliva and nectar evtl little honey just for the purpose that it forms the pellet to be easy transported to the hive!
what a difference?! Almost zero. Within this short period of time NOTHING happens with the flower pollen, the fermentation takes place onlynin the hives and takes days to weeks!

The ratio of ingested „pure flover pollen“ just contaminating the hairy bee body and the bee pollen carried a pellet is 1:1000 my rude guess and can be easily!ignored.

the gut of bees is then potentially full of bee bread if they est it before they go for a nectar and pollen hunt...

So, working with bee pollen is perfectly fine and we do not need to overcomplicate it with an yet minute ammount of fresh flower pollen... this minutisation is a way how to distract from the merit of the debate and efficiently kill the debate IMHO and I do not understand why you do so.

we discuss the bee pollen as a natural part of cham diet
And you come with complications like how to make beetles to digest it and what is the tiiiiiiiiinyyyyy difference between flower pollen and bee pollen sic!!!

nectar? Fir beetles? I am far from ready to discuss this, it has no sense

Why do any of it, I stated why.


I'm not attacking Bee Pollen for Chameleons. I had brought up the differences in another thread, as to the subject of chameleons. However I agree with you, some of the Bee changes to it, may actually be beneficial.

I'm not talking about Dusting Insects with Bee Pollen, which will be digested by the chameleon. I am talking about Feeding the insects the pollen, not only as a Gut load, but also a staple consistent diet. That would be the best approach to wild feeders right? Also may, very likely be better for the beetles.

Watered down Honey like the sugar gliders use as Nectar was a good idea, to alter the pollen into a syrup form where the beetles can eat it. I may give that a shot.
Shouldn't require boiling, and the honey being acidic, along with acidic RO water, should help to preserve.

This is relation to Bee Pollen in the Chameleon diet, as what I am suggesting is raising (at least flower Beetles) on a full pollen diet. So that when the Chameleon eats said Beetle, they are getting the nutrients of the pollen.

The Fruit/Flower beetles, that you showed in the Video and said Chameleons Eat. The Sun Beetles you suggested in the other thread, and the Harlequins we can get in the states.

In the Wild, they eat decaying rotting fruit, they eat pollen, and they drink nectar.

In Captivity, by the Beetle Keepers, they eat Processed Jellys, consisting of Banana, Brown Sugar, and Vitamins. And some fresh fruit, at times, which they will eat when its been in there for a day or 2.


I would like to alter that, for my beetles. To a more natural diet, as I do not feel as feeding Brown Sugar and Banana to a Beetle and then Feeding that Beetle to my cham is a good idea. Personally.

The Brown sugar, may be fine, you will likely know more about this. However I have always disliked the idea.

From the Diet we have seen, in the study and the diet from you. In the wild, they are eating beetles, and Flies, and Bees, Predominately. So to move to a more natural diet, we should move towards those feeders, right?

To do that, we need to find suitable foods for feeding and breeding them. Bees are nice, but not many folks myself included are not in a position where they can do that. We can do, Beetles, and Flys, and maybe find a few more, like Click Bugs, and get those as an option.

 

[PetNcs]

So all this talk brings me to a point.

I sort of belong to two camps on this.

1. The average keeper. We have seen many chams do just fine with the limited feeders we have, so long as proper supplication is provided. We can argue that wit more "optimal" care it would have lived longer, but it lived a fare number of years. Say 3-5 for a male veiled. No this is not full life expectancy, but it does not mean the animal suffered greatly.

2 The naturalist. We want everything as close to nature as possible. Our chams tend to live the full 5-7 expected. Is this because of the extra variety? Or just the fact that we dote over them more than the average keeper.

My lean toward the naturalistic is as a hobbyist.

The Yemen chameleons can live up to 14 years in captivity
I had males reaching 12 easily.

So, in this light your statement “they have not suffered greatly” is very relative, as we CUT their lives by 70% with our “average care”
That we consider “good enough”
And we dare even to recommend this to our newbies.
Imagine, It is like we would be OK with a result when a human would lice 27 years!!!! it is unacceptable!
I insist on the fact we provide care that IS WRONG and we do as if it would be all right. And we find excuses why itnis so hard!

my goodness it is soooo easy!!!!!
If I could have done it in the 90s already without UV lamps and without misting systems and With only extremely expensive foggers and less food a ailable etc etc, WE CAN DO NOW!!!!

BUT WE NEED TO WAKE UP FROM THE NIGHTMARE WHERE WE LIE TO OURSELVES THAT THIS IS OK! IT IS NOT!!!

i will be very frank and stay a bit metaphorical now:

let is do a countdown of a long happy Yemen chameleon life:

1. we start at 14 years.

2. overfeed the animal, make it fat, make it weigh double of its physiological norm and make fun of it and say oh, we are also fat, so let them be like us... CUT 3 YEARS of their
Lives: 11

3. ignore the natural regurements of warm days and very cold nights and say: let us bake them full day under 35-40C basking lights and night drop nort required hahahaha they are hardy animals: CUT 2 YEARS OF THEIR LIVES:9

4. ignore the fact they sit the whole night in heavy fog and have a warm dry day and make it deliberateky and ignorantly REVERSE: spray them several times a day and let them dessicate in the night: they are hardy and this is good enougj for them hahahahaha:CUT 3 YEARS OF THEIR LIVES: 6

5. they are big and roaches are such a great nutritive food, so feed them with big roaches and mealworms (they love them so
Much) and do not give them natural
Pollen but stiff them with artificial crap and feed your beetles with beetle jelly and bug hamburger and buy nameless gutload full of oats and spirulina and other unnatural crap: CUT 2 YEARS OF THEIR LIVES: 4

and you land at exactky life expectancy of the Yemen chameleons now.

I DO NOT CONSIDER IT FUNNY

I am sad as I care for them and feel responsible for them

as I was the asshole that brought them to captivity 30years ago and I have tears in my eyes seeing them becoming genetically crippled and mistreated

I do exaggerate?
frankly, I DO NOT THINK SO!

it is a cry of my soul and I MEAN WHAT I SAY.

 

[cyberlocc]

The Yemen chameleons can live up to 14 years in captivity
I had males reaching 12 easily.

So, in this light your statement “they have not suffered greatly” is very relative, as we CUT their lives by 70% with our “average care”
That we consider “good enough”
And we dare even to recommend this to our newbies.
Imagine, It is like we would be OK with a result when a human would lice 27 years!!!! it is unacceptable!
I insist on the fact we provide care that IS WRONG and we do as if it would be all right. And we find excuses why itnis so hard!

my goodness it is soooo easy!!!!!
If I could have done it in the 90s already without UV lamps and without misting systems and With only extremely expensive foggers and less food a ailable etc etc, WE CAN DO NOW!!!!

BUT WE NEED TO WAKE UP FROM THE NIGHTMARE WHERE WE LIE TO OURSELVES THAT THIS IS OK! IT IS NOT!!!

i will be very frank and stay a bit metaphorical now:

let is do a countdown of a long happy Yemen chameleon life:

1. we start at 14 years.

2. overfeed the animal, make it fat, make it weigh double of its physiological norm and make fun of it and say oh, we are also fat, so let them be like us... CUT 3 YEARS of their
Lives: 11

3. ignore the natural regurements of warm days and very cold nights and say: let us bake them full day under 35-40C basking lights and night drop nort required hahahaha they are hardy animals: CUT 2 YEARS OF THEIR LIVES:9

4. ignore the fact they sit the whole night in heavy fog and have a warm dry day and make it deliberateky and ignorantly REVERSE: spray them several times a day and let them dessicate in the night: they are hardy and this is good enougj for them hahahahaha:CUT 3 YEARS OF THEIR LIVES: 6

5. they are big and roaches are such a great nutritive food, so feed them with big roaches and mealworms (they love them so
Much) and do not give them natural
Pollen but stiff them with artificial crap and feed your beetles with beetle jelly and bug hamburger and buy nameless gutload full of oats and spirulina and other unnatural crap: CUT 2 YEARS OF THEIR LIVES: 4

and you land at exactky life expectancy of the Yemen chameleons now.

I DO NOT CONSIDER IT FUNNY

I am sad as I care for them and feel responsible for them

as I was the asshole that brought them to captivity 30years ago and I have tears in my eyes seeing them becoming genetically crippled and mistreated

I do exaggerate?
frankly, I DO NOT THINK SO!

it is a cry of my soul and I MEAN WHAT I SAY.

Is this to say, you have had a Veiled live for 14 years? Not doubting it, just never heard of one living that long, so was curious is that your record?

 

[PetNcs]

Thank you, I had always doubted this info. It is like the myth I have heard "its a dry region it just gets rain" From looking into the area I quickly realized that this was untrue.
It looks like it is beautiful there.

believe me Yemen is home of the nonlest people in the world
Itnis the land of Queen Sheba and King Solomon
Itnis Arabia Felix of Herodotos
Itnis the land of Frankinscense and trade of Coffee
It is an absokutely wonderful land...


https://www.chameleons.info/l/yemen-the-land-of-the-yemen-chameleon/#

 

[PetNcs]

Is this to say, you have had a Veiled live for 14 years? Not doubting it, just never heard of one living that long, so was curious is that your record?

Nonitnis not itnis a record of one of my colleagues in Germany
I reached repeatedly 12yrs

 

[PetNcs]

Petr I am not understanding why you are trying to start a fight, when I am agreeing with you? And we were having IMO a good productive conversation?

Can we rewind, check out my pollen jelly, reasoning and see what you think.

What is some ideas, other than mine to solve the mentioned issues. If you don't like Boiling, Agar Agar, and orange juice.

sorry, I become enthusiastic when it comes to debates
Not meant as a fight

frankly, i do not care fir beetles and their jelly too much

itnis a technologicalnissuenthat IMHO has more to do with their nutrition than gutloading

and, frankly, again I would suggest letnus go the netural way and it will be the best advice

i have seen unbekieveable captive colonies of Pachnodas without any agar

 

[PetNcs]

The Fruit/Flower beetles, that you showed in the Video and said Chameleons Eat. The Sun Beetles you suggested in the other thread, and the Harlequins we can get in the states.

True!

Why do any of it, I stated why.


I'm not attacking Bee Pollen for Chameleons. I had brought up the differences in another thread, as to the subject of chameleons. However I agree with you, some of the Bee changes to it, may actually be beneficial.

I'm not talking about Dusting Insects with Bee Pollen, which will be digested by the chameleon. I am talking about Feeding the insects the pollen, not only as a Gut load, but also a staple consistent diet. That would be the best approach to wild feeders right? Also may, very likely be better for the beetles.

Watered down Honey like the sugar gliders use as Nectar was a good idea, to alter the pollen into a syrup form where the beetles can eat it. I may give that a shot.
Shouldn't require boiling, and the honey being acidic, along with acidic RO water, should help to preserve.

This is relation to Bee Pollen in the Chameleon diet, as what I am suggesting is raising (at least flower Beetles) on a full pollen diet. So that when the Chameleon eats said Beetle, they are getting the nutrients of the pollen.

The Fruit/Flower beetles, that you showed in the Video and said Chameleons Eat. The Sun Beetles you suggested in the other thread, and the Harlequins we can get in the states.

In the Wild, they eat decaying rotting fruit, they eat pollen, and they drink nectar.

In Captivity, by the Beetle Keepers, they eat Processed Jellys, consisting of Banana, Brown Sugar, and Vitamins. And some fresh fruit, at times, which they will eat when its been in there for a day or 2.


I would like to alter that, for my beetles. To a more natural diet, as I do not feel as feeding Brown Sugar and Banana to a Beetle and then Feeding that Beetle to my cham is a good idea. Personally.

The Brown sugar, may be fine, you will likely know more about this. However I have always disliked the idea.

From the Diet we have seen, in the study and the diet from you. In the wild, they are eating beetles, and Flies, and Bees, Predominately. So to move to a more natural diet, we should move towards those feeders, right?

To do that, we need to find suitable foods for feeding and breeding them. Bees are nice, but not many folks myself included are not in a position where they can do that. We can do, Beetles, and Flys, and maybe find a few more, like Click Bugs, and get those as an option.

Finally we getnto common ground

I can comment to almost all you wrote with YES!

 

[cyberlocc]

sorry, I become enthusiastic when it comes to debates
Not meant as a fight

frankly, i do not care fir beetles and their jelly too much

itnis a technologicalnissuenthat IMHO has more to do with their nutrition than gutloading

and, frankly, again I would suggest letnus go the netural way and it will be the best advice

i have seen unbekieveable captive colonies of Pachnodas without any agar

Ya I'm not attached to the Agar idea. It was just a way to thicken the pollen into a substance that is easier to feed to the beetles.

I also do not like the jellies, I feel like we can feed the beetles a more natural mix of Nectar, Pollen and Fruits.

I'm just trying to figure out the best way to make a suitable source method for this idea. As straight powder wont work well.


So 2 things I can try for now, and see how they work.

Mixing honey water and pollen, into a syrupy mix.

Mixing Organic applesauce and honey and pollen into a applesauce slushy, that will thicken with honey.

They like apples, they like bananas, so a banana mush could also work, with honey and pollen. Or is there another fruit you would suggest instead that is better for the chameleon from a vitamin perspective?

Half of my Larvae have pupated, I have 10 larvae and 14 pupa right now. The pupa should start emerging in the next week or 2.

So I will make these test substances, and try them with a few beetles, isolated on each. Maybe 2 beetles to a food, or 3, in separate cages. Then I will feed the rest, a dish of both, and some apple slices or banana, to ensure they survive, in case the mixes are not enough for beetles to survive (though I am sure it will be)

Run that for a month, and update my Harlequin thread, with the results, so we can explore a healthy feed for the beetles, thats also more natural and better for the Chameleon.

 

[Redman]

When it comes time to make your mixes, you may want to consider a natural anti-fungus/mold agent if you already haven't. I like to use apple cider vinegar. I have no idea how the beetles would react to it, and can't advise you on how much you will need, so you would have to play with it a bit. But for reference, I make a really good fruitfly media using it, and I mix up enough for 6 cultures with a lot of food in them and use 1/4 cup of apple cider vinegar and have zero issues with mold or fungus and no harm to the flies or larvae.

Again, just sharing what works for me, do with it what you will or not.

Also, as a thickener, don't discount mashed potato flakes. I use them to thicken up a lot of things and they work extremely well with no issues for me ever.

 

[cyberlocc]

When it comes time to make your mixes, you may want to consider a natural anti-fungus/mold agent if you already haven't. I like to use apple cider vinegar. I have no idea how the beetles would react to it, and can't advise you on how much you will need, so you would have to play with it a bit. But for reference, I make a really good fruitfly media using it, and I mix up enough for 6 cultures with a lot of food in them and use 1/4 cup of apple cider vinegar and have zero issues with mold or fungus and no harm to the flies or larvae.

Again, just sharing what works for me, do with it what you will or not.

Ya that is want I wanted to use orange juice for. I think Honey will do that job fairly well, the beetle syrup doesnt have to last very long, a day or 2 tops, so its not too bad as long as it lasts 2-3 days.

 

[PetNcs]

Ya I'm not attached to the Agar idea. It was just a way to thicken the pollen into a substance that is easier to feed to the beetles.

if you add to the pollen pellets a little water, you can produce a "mousse"of almost any consistency: from plasteline to watery solution, including what you probably seek: a more or less sticky "paste"

 

[PetNcs]

Mixing honey water and pollen, into a syrupy mix.

my humble experience is that honey does usually not work well as something making things stickier, it either does not mix fully or dissolves and becomes watery too quickly... but there are thousands of honeys, you can try...

 

[PetNcs]

Mixing Organic applesauce and honey and pollen into a applesauce slushy, that will thicken with honey.

They like apples, they like bananas, so a banana mush could also work, with honey and pollen. Or is there another fruit you would suggest instead that is better for the chameleon from a vitamin perspective?

frankly, I would rather go for the logic you seemed to prefer: let us not talk gut load but easy to eat and digest for beetles so that chameleons get it "converted" it into their body

pollen as a supplement can be passed either directly or as gut load of something that gets gutloaded easier and that can have a compromise level of nutritivity of its body (eg crickets that easily accept a pollen paste if not having eaten for a day)

 

[PetNcs]

They like apples, they like bananas, so a banana mush could also work, with honey and pollen. Or is there another fruit you would suggest instead that is better for the chameleon from a vitamin perspective?

i am a bit hesitant to Banana due to Mg
I am a but hesitant to apple due to the apple vinegar content
(all more feeling-wise than exact, but we are speculating, aren't we?)

i would consider pear, guava and mango...

Ya I'm not attached to the Agar idea. It was just a way to thicken the pollen into a substance that is easier to feed to the beetles.

I also do not like the jellies, I feel like we can feed the beetles a more natural mix of Nectar, Pollen and Fruits.

I'm just trying to figure out the best way to make a suitable source method for this idea. As straight powder wont work well.


So 2 things I can try for now, and see how they work.

Mixing honey water and pollen, into a syrupy mix.

Mixing Organic applesauce and honey and pollen into a applesauce slushy, that will thicken with honey.

They like apples, they like bananas, so a banana mush could also work, with honey and pollen. Or is there another fruit you would suggest instead that is better for the chameleon from a vitamin perspective?

Half of my Larvae have pupated, I have 10 larvae and 14 pupa right now. The pupa should start emerging in the next week or 2.

So I will make these test substances, and try them with a few beetles, isolated on each. Maybe 2 beetles to a food, or 3, in separate cages. Then I will feed the rest, a dish of both, and some apple slices or banana, to ensure they survive, in case the mixes are not enough for beetles to survive (though I am sure it will be)

Run that for a month, and update my Harlequin thread, with the results, so we can explore a healthy feed for the beetles, thats also more natural and better for the Chameleon.

sound very good for me
try to get an lout group for comparison as well

 

[cyberlocc]

i am a bit hesitant to Banana due to Mg
I am a but hesitant to apple due to the apple vinegar content
(all more feeling-wise than exact, but we are speculating, aren't we?)

i would consider pear, guava and mango...


sound very good for me
try to get an lout group for comparison as well

Good point.

We have a ton of Pear trees, so Pear works for me Pear and Mango are also very sweet, the beetles seem to like sweet, so I am sure they will take to those.

Ya, defiantly will have a control group, on the normally suggested mix.

 

[PetNcs]

Good point.

We have a ton of Pear trees, so Pear works for me Pear and Mango are also very sweet, the beetles seem to like sweet, so I am sure they will take to those.

Ya, defiantly will have a control group, on the normally suggested mix.

I guess apricots and peaches but they have the disadvantage of being quite unstable and seasonal...

 

[cyberlocc]

I guess apricots and peaches but they have the disadvantage of being quite unstable and seasonal...

Got peach trees too , Ya only have peaches for about a month, or two.