Naturalistic Diet

[kinyonga]

@CasqueAbove said..."One of the pieces that is left out is lighting, and the role it plays in being able to process nutrients. This is one area I am very curious about" Because the curiosity was about nutrients being processed I replied "I don't think the light has anything to do with other nutrients"...is this what you are referring to @PetNcs?

If so, what other nutrients does light (not the heat from the light warming the body to aid in digestion) play a part in the processing of?

Btw...I do know that light has many wavelengths! I took physics and chemistry instead of biology in school, unlike most girls in that day and age!

 

[PetNcs]

The Yemen chameleons can live up to 14 years in captivity
I had males reaching 12 easily.

So, in this light your statement “they have not suffered greatly” is very relative, as we CUT their lives by 70% with our “average care”
That we consider “good enough”
And we dare even to recommend this to our newbies.
Imagine, It is like we would be OK with a result when a human would lice 27 years!!!! it is unacceptable!
I insist on the fact we provide care that IS WRONG and we do as if it would be all right. And we find excuses why itnis so hard!

my goodness it is soooo easy!!!!!
If I could have done it in the 90s already without UV lamps and without misting systems and With only extremely expensive foggers and less food a ailable etc etc, WE CAN DO NOW!!!!

BUT WE NEED TO WAKE UP FROM THE NIGHTMARE WHERE WE LIE TO OURSELVES THAT THIS IS OK! IT IS NOT!!!

i will be very frank and stay a bit metaphorical now:

let is do a countdown of a long happy Yemen chameleon life:

1. we start at 14 years.

2. overfeed the animal, make it fat, make it weigh double of its physiological norm and make fun of it and say oh, we are also fat, so let them be like us... CUT 3 YEARS of their
Lives: 11

3. ignore the natural regurements of warm days and very cold nights and say: let us bake them full day under 35-40C basking lights and night drop nort required hahahaha they are hardy animals: CUT 2 YEARS OF THEIR LIVES:9

4. ignore the fact they sit the whole night in heavy fog and have a warm dry day and make it deliberateky and ignorantly REVERSE: spray them several times a day and let them dessicate in the night: they are hardy and this is good enougj for them hahahahaha:CUT 3 YEARS OF THEIR LIVES: 6

5. they are big and roaches are such a great nutritive food, so feed them with big roaches and mealworms (they love them so
Much) and do not give them natural
Pollen but stiff them with artificial crap and feed your beetles with beetle jelly and bug hamburger and buy nameless gutload full of oats and spirulina and other unnatural crap: CUT 2 YEARS OF THEIR LIVES: 4

and you land at exactky life expectancy of the Yemen chameleons now.

I DO NOT CONSIDER IT FUNNY

I am sad as I care for them and feel responsible for them

as I was the asshole that brought them to captivity 30years ago and I have tears in my eyes seeing them becoming genetically crippled and mistreated

I do exaggerate?
frankly, I DO NOT THINK SO!

it is a cry of my soul and I MEAN WHAT I SAY.

I am really curious why noone has replied to my writing.
Do all agree that cutting their lives by 50-70 per cent is correct, ethical, moral and acceptable?

 

[jamest0o0]

I am really curious why noone has replied to my writing.
Do all agree that cutting their lives by 50-70 per cent is correct, ethical, moral and acceptable?

With respect, I feel a lot/all of what you said is not backed by science. 'Artifical, unnatural, natural, etc are just blah words. You used the example of humans living 27 years instead of 90, well guess how they make it to 90? Through unnatural means. Not many making it to that age are living in the jungles with no western medicine and a very narrow diet. Unnatural methods are what have increased our lifespan to that point. The same way caging chameleons unnaturally has increased their lifespan past the 1-2?(guessing) years in the wild.

 

[Kaizen]

I am really curious why noone has replied to my writing.
Do all agree that cutting their lives by 50-70 per cent is correct, ethical, moral and acceptable?

Well that depends on whether you want to stick with nature, or work beyond it. In nature, very few veileds live longer than 1 year, so we really don’t know what a wild 7 year old veiled chameleon requires in terms of nutrition. They are also exposed regularly to parasites, predators, long periods of food scarcity etc. Should we be replicating these conditions too?

 

[PetNcs]

With respect, I feel a lot/all of what you said is not backed by science. 'Artifical, unnatural, natural, etc are just blah words. You used the example of humans living 27 years instead of 90, well guess how they make it to 90? Through unnatural means. Not many making it to that age are living in the jungles with no western medicine and a very narrow diet. Unnatural methods are what have increased our lifespan to that point. The same way caging chameleons unnaturally has increased their lifespan past the 1-2?(guessing) years in the wild.

OK, do not read bla, and bring science

 

[PetNcs]

With respect, I feel a lot/all of what you said is not backed by science. 'Artifical, unnatural, natural, etc are just blah words. You used the example of humans living 27 years instead of 90, well guess how they make it to 90? Through unnatural means. Not many making it to that age are living in the jungles with no western medicine and a very narrow diet. Unnatural methods are what have increased our lifespan to that point. The same way caging chameleons unnaturally has increased their lifespan past the 1-2?(guessing) years in the wild.

I do not buy your logic.
Uemen chameleons can happily live in caltivity 14 years. The fact they live 3-5 on average an in “best” care they make it to 7
I nothing what we should be satisfied with.

 

[Kaizen]

I do not buy your logic.
Uemen chameleons can happily live in caltivity 14 years. The fact they live 3-5 on average an in “best” care they make it to 7
I nothing what we should be satisfied with.

I certainly agree that we can do much better. Thank you for your response. My logic, however, is quite sound. I am not trying to be combative, but I do wonder whether there is a definitive answer to the following: What are the nutritional requirements of a wild 7 year old veiled chameleon? And by what metric ought we to sort out which wild conditions we should be striving to re-create, and which we shouldn't? Again, this question is not merely empirical, but conceptual as well. There are numerous wild conditions that most of us would not want to replicate in captivity, but that nevertheless serve some nature-evolutionary purpose. How exactly do we justify excluding those conditions from the list of natural conditions we seek to re-create?

 

[CasqueAbove]

I am really curious why noone has replied to my writing.
Do all agree that cutting their lives by 50-70 per cent is correct, ethical, moral and acceptable?

Sorry I missed it. I do agree with you 100% my point is one of reality. I have learned much over the years, but there was a time when I did not.
My point is not that we should be happy with this, but mor on a human scale. If a new owner who got excited and bought it before study. Again not suggesting what should be but what is.
He doe his best with the information at hand. He is not a bad owner. We hope they seek more, but if the animal lives 3-4 years, and they are told this is normal, they thing they are doing it right.

Unfortunately the ones that seek greater info are few and far between. I have a blue and gold macaw. I had raised him, we are at 34 years. I have only met one other that has had one this long, and they live to 70+

So it is not to say it is OK, but I do not condemn those who do their best. We all started young and curious.

It is a different perspective on this site, because they are here to learn so they have taken the first step to knowledge.

Also I was going on the 5-7 for males and 3-5 for females. So that would throw the numbers off. See I am learning.

 

[cyberlocc]

I certainly agree that we can do much better. Thank you for your response. My logic, however, is quite sound. I am not trying to be combative, but I do wonder whether there is a definitive answer to the following: What are the nutritional requirements of a wild 7 year old veiled chameleon? And by what metric ought we to sort out which wild conditions we should be striving to re-create, and which we shouldn't? Again, this question is not merely empirical, but conceptual as well. There are numerous wild conditions that most of us would not want to replicate in captivity, but that nevertheless serve some nature-evolutionary purpose. How exactly do we justify excluding those conditions from the list of natural conditions we seek to re-create?

I brought that up in the Naturalistic Humidity I think it was thread.

The idea of Fogging only, and the short basking times, ect. The schedule, that Bill presented in terms of a Panther. To me, recreates the Dry Season.

Is that the season we should be recreating? We have winter's, in the states it's going to be drier for folks that have to heat their homes. So if recreating the Dry Season is proper, should we also recreate the Wet Season Summer? Why choose the dry season year round?


I know Petr is taking about Yemen Chameleons with the Fogging, and I will admit, I have a bias toward caring more for the Malagay species personally. So I want to be clear, I am only speaking of those.

However the night humidity raise is still present. Then we have a wet Season with rain pretty much every day.

So why are we not creating that? Why follow the high humidity nights and ignore the daily rain?

I know Petr has stated because Misters are not rain. I agree, I greatly want a better rain system personally. However Misting as Petr states it, is pressurized water particles, which is true and agreed.

However a fogger is also pressurized water particles. How can we demonize one, and elevate the other?

 

[CasqueAbove]

I am really curious why noone has replied to my writing.
Do all agree that cutting their lives by 50-70 per cent is correct, ethical, moral and acceptable?

On the moral ethical issue it get confusing. Should we own them at all? Anybody that owns exotics contribute to the bad side of the trade. Not directly of course, but simply by having interest, the bad wild collectors are encouraged to get more.

And what of the poor fish. Man what are their odds.

My balance is this. We must do our best to provide for our pets. But our best is not always going to be the same. Looking back on my mistakes I always meant well, and I learned. I would not have learned, had I not mad mistakes. Even through study mistakes are made. Some of what I have learned was not even available when I started.

For many people the pet shop is their experience with animals. And the employees, they know their stuff. It is usually not until they see this "expert advice" fail before they begin to question. I would rather them learn about the balances then be discouraged and quit.


It is a tricky balance. Without interest or knowledge of many species, there would be no effort to save them in the wild. If left completely in the wild there will be less interest.

There is no good or bad in this. It just is.

 

[Redman]

My personal perspective on the ethical nature of keeping exotic pets is about maintaining a captive bred population to supply the desire for pets and help curb the harmful over-collection of wild and/or threatened species.

My own interest actually lies in genetics and breeding strategies towards a specific goal. With fish, which I did for longer than I want to admit, I specialized in the ornamental varieties that could be bred for specific traits and expressions such as Angelfish, Bettas, Ranchu, Koi, guppies, and many others over the years.

I fully support the conservation of wild types in their natural habitat, and have no problem working with captive bred lines that are many times removed from the wild. There is of course the argument that you get the best colors from wild caught animals, but it's not worth the impact on the species to me to go that route. That is obviously just my own opinion and worth the paper it isn't written on, and each of us make our own choices and boundaries.

There are some angelfish in the wilds of South America, for example, that have the most amazing red coloration on their heads (Manacupuru Angelfish for the Google Inclined), that are much sought after in the Angelfish community. But the problem with taking them out of the wild, is that they no longer have access to the arthropods from that river to give them the nutritional component to develop that coloration in the first place. Almost invariably, any offspring from these wild caught angels will display coloration that is more in line with a standard silver angel, losing the distinctive red coloration that makes them so desirable.

So, what should people do? To get fish that show this color into adulthood they have to be wild caught. To this point, at least to my knowledge, no one has come up with a good artificial substitute to supplement their diet.
I personally am happy to see pics of them in the wild and don't need to transplant them to my tanks to enjoy them, but I am just one person in a sea of hobbyists. But I know many who continue to support the wild collection of these, Altum angels, rare plecostimus, and many others from South America.

Oh my, here I am going all tangential again. Sorry, you just got me thinking...bad habit, I know. LOL

 

[CasqueAbove]

My personal perspective on the ethical nature of keeping exotic pets is about maintaining a captive bred population to supply the desire for pets and help curb the harmful over-collection of wild and/or threatened species.

My own interest actually lies in genetics and breeding strategies towards a specific goal. With fish, which I did for longer than I want to admit, I specialized in the ornamental varieties that could be bred for specific traits and expressions such as Angelfish, Bettas, Ranchu, Koi, guppies, and many others over the years.

I fully support the conservation of wild types in their natural habitat, and have no problem working with captive bred lines that are many times removed from the wild. There is of course the argument that you get the best colors from wild caught animals, but it's not worth the impact on the species to me to go that route. That is obviously just my own opinion and worth the paper it isn't written on, and each of us make our own choices and boundaries.

There are some angelfish in the wilds of South America, for example, that have the most amazing red coloration on their heads (Manacupuru Angelfish for the Google Inclined), that are much sought after in the Angelfish community. But the problem with taking them out of the wild, is that they no longer have access to the arthropods from that river to give them the nutritional component to develop that coloration in the first place. Almost invariably, any offspring from these wild caught angels will display coloration that is more in line with a standard silver angel, losing the distinctive red coloration that makes them so desirable.

So, what should people do? To get fish that show this color into adulthood they have to be wild caught. To this point, at least to my knowledge, no one has come up with a good artificial substitute to supplement their diet.
I personally am happy to see pics of them in the wild and don't need to transplant them to my tanks to enjoy them, but I am just one person in a sea of hobbyists. But I know many who continue to support the wild collection of these, Altum angels, rare plecostimus, and many others from South America.

Oh my, here I am going all tangential again. Sorry, you just got me thinking...bad habit, I know. LOL

Yes that is how I see it. My one wish is that harvested wild populations are managed. But with all the people and countries it will remain just a wish.

 

[PetNcs]

I certainly agree that we can do much better. Thank you for your response. My logic, however, is quite sound. I am not trying to be combative, but I do wonder whether there is a definitive answer to the following: What are the nutritional requirements of a wild 7 year old veiled chameleon? And by what metric ought we to sort out which wild conditions we should be striving to re-create, and which we shouldn't? Again, this question is not merely empirical, but conceptual as well. There are numerous wild conditions that most of us would not want to replicate in captivity, but that nevertheless serve some nature-evolutionary purpose. How exactly do we justify excluding those conditions from the list of natural conditions we seek to re-create?

ask science, she will give you an answer you want and not bla... I am afraid she will stay silent...
(I am sorry that I can not swallow that kind of rudeness I am not used to from the countries I am home to)

I do not know why it is always so hard to make things simple.
Overdiscussing and seeking scinece where science do not have the answers, as noone has studied this in detail yet.
Why it is Ok to discuss absolutely irrelevant issues on how to use agar for bugs to feed pollen but if someone offers to share a PhD, 30+ yearsnof experience, 30t bred Yemens in 15generations, a year of life and study in Yemen, it is called bla... Weird world we live in.
Why the opinions oresented lead on your side to deep destructive doubt instead to the only valid question ai would ask on your place:
“Wow, you kept Yemens fir 12 years... How did you do that?!”

But OK, you do not need to read further and please do not, as you will not like what I will write very likely

Science always seeks the ways how to KNOW.
And, there is one simple scientific approach that is repeated for centuries and every scientist knows it.
If we do know, we use our education and expertise to “Assume” and set hypothesis.
And then, we do experiments to proof or falsify. That is easy.

we definitely do NOT KNOW which of the environmental factors is vital and which is lethal? Funny, of course, most of the cases we of course know
That feral cat is lethal
Water in small amounts is vital
58’C is lethal
UV is vital and lethal depending on spectrum and dosis
Etc etc..

And in the few we are not sure, we can assume.

I did this exercise and I based it on all available: published and unpunlished data, General knoledge, own experience and experience if others and own physical experience from the biotopes and land and people and nature and climate and everything that I could take into consideration and measure and feel and perceive and sense.

And, I know exactly how to let a yemen chameleon survive 12 years.
Why I know? Because I have done it several times! And I can repeat it any time.

It does NOT explicitly mean, I know everything and best and all I Know is correct.
But with absolute confidence, I know more and better than those who keep Yemen chameleons for 3,5 and 7 years until they die.

and I can tell you one more mystery, as I always hear hiw hard it will be to simullate all this. Itnis NOT hard
Itnis easy and in our technological age we live, it is not more complicated nd not
More expensive that what an average keeper does anyway!

So, you have a choice:
Either you listen to the one who has made it
Or you insist to listen to what you call
Science (i do not understand what yiu mean anyway) and continue be happy with advice and people effectively killing the chameleons at 30 to 50 percent of the reacheable longevity and be happy that they kill them the way you feel is science”.

 

[PetNcs]

Sorry I missed it. I do agree with you 100% my point is one of reality. I have learned much over the years, but there was a time when I did not.
My point is not that we should be happy with this, but mor on a human scale. If a new owner who got excited and bought it before study. Again not suggesting what should be but what is.
He doe his best with the information at hand. He is not a bad owner. We hope they seek more, but if the animal lives 3-4 years, and they are told this is normal, they thing they are doing it right.

Unfortunately the ones that seek greater info are few and far between. I have a blue and gold macaw. I had raised him, we are at 34 years. I have only met one other that has had one this long, and they live to 70+

So it is not to say it is OK, but I do not condemn those who do their best. We all started young and curious.

It is a different perspective on this site, because they are here to learn so they have taken the first step to knowledge.

Also I was going on the 5-7 for males and 3-5 for females. So that would throw the numbers off. See I am learning.

My deepest respect!
You hit the nailsnon their heads IMHO.

I just want to add
Yess!!! And it is iur reaponsibility to instruct people how to xare better and tell them not that 3,5,7 years are. Ormal and good enough but telm them they can have a friend at home
Living sale long as aberage cat or dog...
iF
IF we care properly!!!

instead, we define a “pardon general” and even the advice in this group in the philosophy of the care sheets is NOT “how to do it best possible and reallistoc way”
BUT “how to do it just what we call fine...”

 

[PetNcs]

Well that depends on whether you want to stick with nature, or work beyond it. In nature, very few veileds live longer than 1 year, so we really don’t know what a wild 7 year old veiled chameleon requires in terms of nutrition. They are also exposed regularly to parasites, predators, long periods of food scarcity etc. Should we be replicating these conditions too?

i have never said we need to replicate the nature.
If ai am asked to
Make a stayement here,
i always define thenaturlistic approach in chameleon husbandry as the way how to “simullate the vital natural conditions and eliminate the lethal ones”

unfortunately,

we even do not sikulkate the vital ones enough
We eliminate some of the lethal ones
but we add new lethal ones on ten top also...

 

[CasqueAbove]

ask science, she will give you an answer you want and not bla... I am afraid she will stay silent...
(I am sorry that I can not swallow that kind of rudeness I am not used to from the countries I am home to)

I do not know why it is always so hard to make things simple.
Overdiscussing and seeking scinece where science do not have the answers, as noone has studied this in detail yet.
Why it is Ok to discuss absolutely irrelevant issues on how to use agar for bugs to feed pollen but if someone offers to share a PhD, 30+ yearsnof experience, 30t bred Yemens in 15generations, a year of life and study in Yemen, it is called bla... Weird world we live in.
Why the opinions oresented lead on your side to deep destructive doubt instead to the only valid question ai would ask on your place:
“Wow, you kept Yemens fir 12 years... How did you do that?!”

But OK, you do not need to read further and please do not, as you will not like what I will write very likely

Science always seeks the ways how to KNOW.
And, there is one simple scientific approach that is repeated for centuries and every scientist knows it.
If we do know, we use our education and expertise to “Assume” and set hypothesis.
And then, we do experiments to proof or falsify. That is easy.

we definitely do NOT KNOW which of the environmental factors is vital and which is lethal? Funny, of course, most of the cases we of course know
That feral cat is lethal
Water in small amounts is vital
58’C is lethal
UV is vital and lethal depending on spectrum and dosis
Etc etc..

And in the few we are not sure, we can assume.

I did this exercise and I based it on all available: published and unpunlished data, General knoledge, own experience and experience if others and own physical experience from the biotopes and land and people and nature and climate and everything that I could take into consideration and measure and feel and perceive and sense.

And, I know exactly how to let a yemen chameleon survive 12 years.
Why I know? Because I have done it several times! And I can repeat it any time.

It does NOT explicitly mean, I know everything and best and all I Know is correct.
But with absolute confidence, I know more and better than those who keep Yemen chameleons for 3,5 and 7 years until they die.

and I can tell you one more mystery, as I always hear hiw hard it will be to simullate all this. Itnis NOT hard
Itnis easy and in our technological age we live, it is not more complicated nd not
More expensive that what an average keeper does anyway!

So, you have a choice:
Either you listen to the one who has made it
Or you insist to listen to what you call
Science (i do not understand what yiu mean anyway) and continue be happy with advice and people effectively killing the chameleons at 30 to 50 percent of the reacheable longevity and be happy that they kill them the way feel is science”.

I am with you on longevity. That is why I am here. I personally have a new bar set. I have a 34 year old bird, 22 year old snake, a 10+ cham would fit right in.

For me The night time is new info. I have a mist king, I am going to start giving short night showers. Per this forum I have already started a mist shortly after lights out. Will this supplement for fogger.

As for food. As many I am limited in option at times. My current approach is going to feed the standard feeders w/supplements during winter, but catch and feed as many winged insects as I can. Do moths count?

 

[PetNcs]

The idea of Fogging only, and the short basking times, ect. The schedule, that Bill presented in terms of a Panther. To me, recreates the Dry Season.

not at all
Please study the climate of Yemen where Yemen chameleons live and come
Back with other interpretation, this is a false one and it discredits Bill,
That has done a great efforst and based it oartly on out looong discussions and even a oersonal
Meeting fir couple of days, ti which ai flew literally accross all the globe and he accreoss all
America.

 

[PetNcs]

Is that the season we should be recreating? We have winter's, in the states it's going to be drier for folks that have to heat their homes. So if recreating the Dry Season is proper, should we also recreate the Wet Season Summer? Why choose the dry season year round?

no, you build your argumentation on a false assumption

what I suggest is definitely to simulate the seasons in a milder mode than they are expressed in the wild

 

[PetNcs]

I know Petr is taking about Yemen Chameleons with the Fogging, and I will admit, I have a bias toward caring more for the Malagay species personally. So I want to be clear, I am only speaking of those.

go
To Madagascar and measure and experience as I did for many minths
And you will find out a surprizing fact: the oatterns in nighttime humidity are extremely and surprizingly similar!
And
Not only comparing Uemen and Madagasxar lowland species,
But almost all chameleons in the wild...

All chameleons experience very high nighttime humidities for a substantial part of the year including less or
More intense FOG

 

[PetNcs]

So why are we not creating that? Why follow the high humidity nights and ignore the daily rain?

Absolutely agree
Simulate what IS the real combination of environmentla
Factors in the wild

eain is experienced not physically but around them as they hide from it when they can
Rain happens at quite
Low temperatires and not while basking lamp (sun LOL) is ON
The raise of humidity quickly goes necause of wind and increased temp and get back to low humidity levels just few tens of
Minutes after rain