Yeah me too....
Naturalistic hydration - how does it work?
- Thread starter Brodybreaux25
- Start date
CamoChameleonsHuman
Chameleon Enthusiast
You will not be disappointed. This I can promise you with my life.I will check this out thank you! Off subject But I’d like to point out that I was planing on getting a Jackson’s chameleon in the beginning of this adventure when I started researching these amazing creatures 5 months ago. That’s why I have so many locations for Jackson’s weather in my phone lol. But after much research around the forum I decided on a @Matt Vanilla Gorilla ambilobe panther chameleon about a month ago. He will be arriving very soon. Shout out to him he is one of the best on this forum for panther babies and is extremely knowledgeable!
CamoChameleonsHuman
Chameleon Enthusiast
I work for a Danish based company. Netherland accents are easy peasy for me to understand lol
Awww congrats. I am getting a Nosy Be boy from him the end of the month. He is awesome! You need to update your profile picI will check this out thank you! Off subject But I’d like to point out that I was planing on getting a Jackson’s chameleon in the beginning of this adventure when I started researching these amazing creatures 5 months ago. That’s why I have so many locations for Jackson’s weather in my phone lol. But after much research around the forum I decided on a @Matt Vanilla Gorilla ambilobe panther chameleon about a month ago. He will be arriving very soon
Rst_Cham
Chameleon Enthusiast
Oh, I could understand what he was saying, I'm just not sure I absorbed all the content of the podcast!
I love when Bill breaks it down in the end! He is so Awesome!
Rst_Cham
Chameleon Enthusiast
He's amazing!
There was a conversation/debate on feeder variety on Monday on his facebook group that was started by Kevin Stanford, that involved Bill, Frank Payne, and another expert, cant remember his name. Very interesting. I wanted to share the link on here but couldn't figure out how. Bill's comments were just so well worded.
There was another post where someone posted a pic of an obese cham and Bill stepped in and commented that the cham was overweight and what should be done and the person took offense and was like who are you to tell me my cham is fat, who made you an expert, etc, clearly not knowing that Bill IS the expert. smh.
Rlc1994
Chameleon Enthusiast
Oh I plan on it don’t worry lol it will be Changed to a picture of my little man when he arrivesAwww congrats. I am getting a Nosy Be boy from him the end of the month. He is awesome! You need to update your profile pic
yes I saw that thread he looks amazing! Congrats!
Yeah I am a member in his group. I need to go check that post out on feeder variety. I like Bill quite a bit. He does not have an ego like some of the other leaders in the field can come off with. He just really cares.
Here is a nice illustration of the simplicity of chameleons lungs. Mammalian lungs are so much more complex with endless branches and microscopic air sacs. You can imagine how easy it would be to lose moisture thru that membrane.
*Somewhat Graphic*-Chameleon lung during necropsy displaying remarkably thin walls--blurred areas but not perfect
*Somewhat Graphic*-Chameleon lung during necropsy displaying remarkably thin walls--blurred areas but not perfect
Thank you for the somewhat graphic warning... I will wait until after I eat to look lol
Brodybreaux25
Chameleon Enthusiast
And I understand all of that, anytime you remove a barrier between two differential gradients they are going to equalize, physics 101...The idea is based on the amount of moisture in the air and the transference into or out of the lungs. In many dehydration cases in humans, sweating is not always the main culprit in water loss. Many will lose water through breathing in dry rooms at night sleeping. The effect is amplified for those who breathe through their mouths while sleeping. It is finding a balance. If you have two rooms separated by a door and one has 20% humidity and the other 1000%, once the door is left open the two rooms will start to become balanced. The molecules in the dry air have more room between them and it is easy for moisture to take up the space.
Think of a cold winter day. You go outside and see your breath. That is moisture leaving your body through your lungs. (There is also a temperature factor here as well.) That moisture transfer happens in the chameleon's natural environment and we can replicate it in our captive settings with a fogger. If we only focus on misting during the day for hydration we could actually be causing more dehydration due to our methods. I will say that tons of us have been successful using misting as the primary source of water, but this seemed like a more efficient way to provide it. That is what led me to try the night time fogging method and I am also very pleased with the results.
I'm sure someone here has the terms that explain the moisture transfer in lungs as well as how it aids in oxygen use by the body, but that is above my pay grade
Is it simply that since the air outside is so much greater than the air in their lungs that there is absolutely no loss, meaning the body never has to make up the loss? This combined with the moisture they take in from their prey along with how efficient the rest of their body’s are with water would explain a lot.
I guess I’m really asking is how do the lungs collect water from the air and then shift it out of the lungs and into the rest of the body? After all, lungs are designed to capture oxygen molecules, not water molecules.
I wonder if it has anything to do with the lungs capturing a single oxygen molecule, which they are designed to do, that just happens to have another oxygen and hydrogen molecule attached to it, H2O. Air with 100% humidity would have a lot more H2O molecules in it so the odds of their lungs catching one of the two oxygen molecules in H2O would be much greater than air at only 50% RH.
Lunatuck
Established Member
I'm wondering the same exact thing. Is there some mechanism in their lungs preventing them from exhaling hydration? Im limited in my reptile biology knowledge, but I belive this would be unique. Amphibians can get hydration through their skin. I wonder if there isn't some yet to be understood mechanism behind this.
CamoChameleonsHuman
Chameleon Enthusiast
Chameleons mostly breathe through their nostrils and always this way while sleeping so moisture loss should be at a minimum. If you're a mouth breathing snoring bear like me moisture loss is more prevelent. Our bodies like most living things are mostly made up of water anyways. Clearly our lungs as well as theirs have some sort of mucus membrane where water can pass through or at least the 2 hydrogen molecules yet trapping the oxygen molecules.
Lunatuck
Established Member
But, humans cannot hydrate by breathing. I'm wondering if Chameleons can. If they cannot, then somehow they need to drink more then the exhale. I understand that you lose less water through nose breathing, but you still lose a lot. And since they are moving (read alive), it means they are converting the food + water into energy. So some of the water isn't water when it exits.
I will say, I've seen my guy lap it up like he's never seen water before. But, then I'll go weeks without seeing him take a drink. Urites always looks fine.
GoodKarma19
Chameleon Enthusiast
Technically, humans (and mammals in general) can't hydrate by breathing... but higher rH levels = slower dehydration rates. For example, if you ran a marathon in high humidity conditions, you'd need to drink less water than you might need to in arid conditions.
To my understanding, it's less that chameleons are hydrating themselves via breathing in high humidity air, and more that they so efficiently use the water available in their bodies in the first place that high humidity overnight essentially balances out any potential loses while they sleep. Therefore, when they wake they don't need to replenish their water stores as much as they otherwise might need to if the humidity was to drop overnight.
Interesting discussion, guys. Feel free to correct me if I've reached the wrong conclusion!
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
I've wondered about this because higher humidity would seem like it'd lead to less dehydration, but I've heard the opposite. For example, mma fighters will cut weight by sitting in high heat humidity like a sauna or a bath.
Also according to petr, it seems they do hydrate through humidity, unlike humans. He has only used foggers with no water for months? I think he said... and be says they are still very hydrated.
GoodKarma19
Chameleon Enthusiast
Hmm, fair point! I think that largely applies to high humidity alongside hot temperatures, though, which would be part of why we fog at night.
Perhaps we ought to pretend that my marathon analogy is taking place during a cool night.
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
Hmm, fair point! I think that largely applies to high humidity alongside hot temperatures, though, which would be part of why we fog at night.
Perhaps we ought to pretend that my marathon analogy is taking place during a cool night.
Honestly I am not sure about the specifics, I only know what I've heard. I would think the exact thing you mentioned.
