NEW C. gracilis x calyptratus hybrid

[fluxlizard]

Can lizards even reproduce through arrhenotokous parthenogenesis? (I think I spelled that right?)

If they cannot, and there are males present in the clutch, we can throw out parthenogenesis.

Uh- yes- that is what I was talking about earlier and why I brought it up. I rarely pull stuff up out of pure imagination.

There are some species that are entirely parthenogenic- some geckos, whiptails and some butterfly agama species for examples. All females like you mention.

Some species parthenogenic reproduction sometimes occurs and other times it is normal reproduction. And in at least some cases parthenogenic reproduction occurred in captivity after females were mounted by other known females.

But it gets more interesting, the female thing doesn't hold true for all species of lizard so far- Komodo dragons hatched out all males when this occurred.

It's occurred in other species as well (nile monitor, and I've seen reports here and there of others over the years but can't remember what they were- I want to say one was a water dragon but I can't remember for sure.

Here are a few links to get you started-

Because of the genetics of this process, he added, her children would always be male.

This is because Komodo dragons have W and Z chromosomes - females have one W and one Z, males have two Zs.

The egg from the female carries one chromosome, either a W or Z, and when parthenogenesis takes place, either the W or Z is duplicated.

This leads to eggs which are WW and ZZ. WW eggs are not viable, but ZZ eggs are, and lead to male baby Komodo dragons.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6196225.stm?lsm

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Virgin+scary%3b+EXPERTS+AMAZED+AS+LIZARD+HAS+AN+IMMACULATE+BIRTH.-a0202732081

Up to 30 percent of unfertilized turkey eggs can spontaneously begin to develop. In one study, selective breeding boosted the rate above 40 percent.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2007/06/brave_old_world.html

 

[pssh]

I was just mentioning producing males from parthenogenesis since I'd never heard of reptiles being able to produce males (though I don't look into it much.) Not many people know that it's possible to have males come from parthenogenic reproduction at all.

It's just a question that I was asking about a specific type of parthenogenesis. I know some are capable of producing only female offspring.

 

[Frankcham]

I dont know too much about that whole mating but I do know my veiled female had no other contact with any other chameleon beside the graceful male chameleon that mated with her and Ive had the female since she was baby and her head was alot more pointed then the babies have right now...

as far as males I cant tell yet because the other four babies are still small but there is one that mighr be showing that spur on his legs

Ill post more of the other ones soon.

and if u still dont believe the cross or just entered the convo is a veiled and a graceful look at my video on page 5 or 6 of the parents

 

[melric]

This thread took a long time to read. Ugh. Anyway, so only 5 left. I don't think they died from being hybrids...

 

[italian chameleon]

By the way, calyptratus and africanus recognize each other as mates, too.

really? I thought it was arabicus not africanus! there's always something new to learn about chams!

 

[fluxlizard]

really? I thought it was arabicus not africanus!

Oh- yeah- I was actually thinking about that, not the other when I said I knew that. LOL

I dont know too much about that whole mating but I do know my veiled female had no other contact with any other chameleon beside the graceful male chameleon that mated with her and Ive had the female since she was baby and her head was alot more pointed then the babies have right now...

as far as males I cant tell yet because the other four babies are still small but there is one that mighr be showing that spur on his legs

Ill post more of the other ones soon.

and if u still dont believe the cross or just entered the convo is a veiled and a graceful look at my video on page 5 or 6 of the parents

Yes- and I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm raining on your parade.

I am actually very interested to see how they look as they turn out. I'm not saying they aren't crosses, I'm just saying be patient a little longer and see how they look as they mature. The differences should then become obvious.

Either way (hybrid (more likely since you point out that she hasn't been with another male at any time) or parthenogenic conception) the possibilities are pretty amazing.

I just keep butting in because of some of the observations being made which I feel are inaccurate.

First was the stress pattern which everyone got excited about even though it appeared to my eyes to look exactly like baby veileds with stress patterns. Guess nobody ever had a stressed baby veiled around which is a good thing. These have faded as I predicted (good thing since stress is bad).

And now maybe it is just me or the way I see the photos but I don't see much if any difference in casque development to veileds that size.

Someone mentioned at hatching veileds have bigger casques- I've never seen that- here is a photo of a recent hatchling here- and this is stereotypical for all the hatchlings I have ever seen-

At the size yours is at, yours appears to be normal casque development to me for a veiled that size.

But- like I pointed out before- that is neither here nor there for determining if these are veileds or hybrids.

Time should tell as they grow into subadults, or genetic testing.

Sounds like one thing that might help clarify at this age would be to determine if they are all one sex or not. Sounds like parthogenic offspring are usually all male or all female depending.

 

[Kent67]

Calyptratus x arabicus produces the described "subspecies." I was talking about the recent Ch. africanus imports. They are being crossed with calyptratus.

Also, I didn't say every baby calyptratus has a more developed casque out of the egg. When I get home I'll post a pic of a baby much smaller than Frank's with much more casque.

 

[Kent67]

Ok, here's what I'm seeing....this little guy was maybe a month old and appears to me much smaller than the assumed hybrids. The back of its casque is already starting to grow and is proportionately bigger than Frank's babies. Also, the head of the baby translucent seems more blocky than Frank's which seem elongated.

 

[DekuScrub]

I've never seen that. Ever. LOL

every clutch ive raised tends to have a larger casque given the age...

but that all depends on dominant traits in the progenitors.

i get why you are questioning the validity of the claim that they are hybrids, but given the information at hand. it seems in all likelihood we are looking at hybrids (given that information is accurate)

then again i am wary to support this. based on the popularity of translucent veilds that has developed over the past couple years, and the irresponsibility involved.

among responsible owners, this is perfectly fine. but with some of the "breeders" we see this could be unbelievably detrimental

this is cool, and interesting. but if some a-hole decides these things are a novelty and are worth money. begins to breed and inbreed successive generations we are looking at a sad sad situation.

flux i think you need to drop your doubt for now. at least till we have some more conclusive proof. and even then if the offspring virtually look like veileds it dosnt mean the gracilis isnt in them, that just makes it apparent calytratus genes are dominant.

all in all flux i think you need to forget your own agenda (no matter how valiant it may be) stop bashing this and claiming its as unlikely. and accept it as an unexpected, educational blessing.

certainly you are entitled to you own opinions as i am mine. based on given information,as long as it is accurate, theses are hybrids. you fight this perspective, seemingly based on the fact it has never been seen before. maybe im a dreamer and maybe youre a realist maybe im wrong and maybe your right. but we need further information to make any sort of conclusion.

maybe she mated at a very young age and retained the sperm. maybe a successful hybridization happened. maybe some form of parthenogenesis occurred.

i wouldnt claim, so seemingly, adamant that its as doubtful as you imply.

 

[DekuScrub]

is that poor baby as sad to you guys as it is to me? or are trans veileds commonly accepted nowadays?

oy

like i said in the other thread thats an awesome trait but specifically breeding for and perpetuating that mutation is a bit upsetting to me

 

[lumbasammler]

is that poor baby as sad to you guys as it is to me? or are trans veileds commonly accepted nowadays?

oy

like i said in the other thread thats an awesome trait but specifically breeding for and perpetuating that mutation is a bit upsetting to me

I feel the same way, i really don´t feel good about breeding those.

 

[italian chameleon]

breeding them could perhaps be acceptable, but charging a much higher price when selling them, that's even worse to me!!!

anyway back to the hybrids, could they turn out bigger because of hybrid vigor? or I'm getting this totally wrong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vigor

 

[Jackson chameleonair]

keep us updated on there growth

 

[fluxlizard]

flux i think you need to drop your doubt for now. at least till we have some more conclusive proof. and even then if the offspring virtually look like veileds it dosnt mean the gracilis isnt in them, that just makes it apparent calytratus genes are dominant.

all in all flux i think you need to forget your own agenda (no matter how valiant it may be) stop bashing this and claiming its as unlikely. and accept it as an unexpected, educational blessing.

Naw- I don't have an agenda other than to encourage a wait and see approach.

I'm actually not one who has a huge problem with hybrids.

I don't really care much one way or the other for the following reasons-

1) Descendants aren't going back into nature anyway
2) Once breeders start selecting for breeding, natural selection goes almost out the window. The biggest and most brilliant and oddballs like that veiled pictured tend to be selected. That is hardly a fair representation of the "authentic" wild variety.
3)Some hybrids don't seem to look much different from one or other of the parents. Hybrid rock iguanas a good case in point.
4) Sometimes hybrids bring out traits desirable to collectors (I think I remember reading that some of the albino colubrids came about from hybridization with albinos of other species and then the crosses bred back into the desired species).

All that said- I don't care much for the oddballs/hybrids myself (I really have no desire to get a baby chameleon like the one pictured). By and large I prefer the wild looking lizards (with some exceptions- I have bred some lizards for colors/patterns).

Bottom line- It isn't my intention to "bash" anyone or anything on this thread. My intention is simply to say- I don't see anything that looks different from a normal veiled in the pictures. I've hatched out many thousands of veileds since 1992. Could be the pictures, could be my memory- but I don't see anything evidence yet that these things are showing anything unique that wouldn't be seen in a veiled- so far. Which doesn't mean they aren't hybrids either. It just means that is what I see. Rock iguana hybrids can look just like non-hybrids, so what we see doesn't necessarily mean a hybrid or not.

But with an extreme casque that a veiled has- There should be some difference that are dramatic in these in another month or two- enough to make things obvious. The OP was wondering about sell price before my last response. If they were mine, I'd wait until they showed dramatic difference before marketing them and then set my price according to what I saw. (Actually if they were mine, since there are only several, I'd probably try to see if they could reproduce myself and hang on to them).

But that is just me.

Please don't take my previous comments as bashing- only as caution.

And that weird little translucent veiled in the photo is not representative of any casques that I've seen on mine at that size. I think maybe the casque is either unusual or goes along with that morph which I have zero experience with.

 

[Frankcham]

Here are some updated pictures...the picture of the small chameleon is the smallest one of the bunch he lost the end of his tail I dont know how that happen. The other one that has two of them those two are the biggest ones I have...and the third picture is of the biggest one ...so far they are all girls..I dont know if that is bad or good

 

[fluxlizard]

Do any have tarsal spurs?

They are still so small for their age. Look pretty though.

 

[JRchameleons]

To everyone else, I met Frank at a show over the summer where he showed me the pics of the copulation and said he had these eggs that still appeared to be good. If I remember correctly, the parents were his first two chameleons? I told him to please, please, please contact me if they hatched as I was very curious. As he said, this breeding was not done on purpose as he didn't think it was even a possibility and so had them free-ranging. "Nature will find a way."

I'm not trying to bash anyone, but I just noticed something that seems inconsistent with the story and I have a genuine question - Frank, if you had them free ranging together because you didn't know they would/could breed, why do they appear to be in a cage together in the video? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nCovcd185k&feature=youtube)

 

[Captive Creations]

they sure do seem to be in a cage dont they ??????

 

[pssh]

Some people use the cage as part of a free range. If you have plants outside the cage and just open the door (with an access vine or something) it works well since you can just mist in the cage.

 

[Frankcham]

I'm not trying to bash anyone, but I just noticed something that seems inconsistent with the story and I have a genuine question - Frank, if you had them free ranging together because you didn't know they would/could breed, why do they appear to be in a cage together in the video? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nCovcd185k&feature=youtube)

To answer your question..these were my first two chameleons I didnt know freerange meant to literary let them walk around free around my work place. That is another reason they were both inside a cage they were housed at my company so they couldnt be completely "freerange"...

But either way shouldnt matter the babies where born and they are being cared for with alot of love . Right now I have 3 girls and I cant tell what the other 2 are yet.