Frankcham
New Member
I think it is great and hope all five live, grow well and are beautiful for you.
Thank you
NEW C. gracilis x calyptratus hybrid
- Thread starter Frankcham
- Start date
Thank you
DekuScrub
Avid Member
hehehehe purple assed camel lizards.
while i fundamentally agree with chris, in that bloodlines should be kept pure. once the human element is introduced its a whole other ball game.
ideally all these lovely chameleons would be off in the wild reproducing without human encroachment. survival being dictated not by us but by their "pure" environment but its just human nature to get involved, to get invasive. and to change the world.
without humans there wouldnt be umpteen billion chickens, and no more moas.
the future of all organisms isnt dictated only by natural factors as it has been for the history of life on this planet. theres a sinister force partially ignorance, partially survival and in out cases curiosity, and love. a love for the beauty in this world and what countless ages have produced for us to witness in awe.
humans have graduated from the lowly organism to a force of nature unto itself.
attempting to preserve a world we have already changed irreversibly is commendable. but it seems to me unrealistic. especially to think that the captive populations arent being selectively bred. larger casque, specific coloration or pattern, more pronounced rostrum, and most certainly inadvertently hardyness.
i dont see how this could possibly be construed as a bad thing. as long as he sells them off to sound minded fanatics of the hobby, you wont see them accidentally corrupting any gene pools. if fact the majority any chameleon sold likely dont breed at all. they end up as display animals. so thats just a bunch of dead ends
all in all this is a pretty amazing discovery if you ask me.
but thats all just my personal opinion.
i dont advocate trying to hybridize and keeping clean strong lineage should be priority.
sign me up for one btw
while i fundamentally agree with chris, in that bloodlines should be kept pure. once the human element is introduced its a whole other ball game.
ideally all these lovely chameleons would be off in the wild reproducing without human encroachment. survival being dictated not by us but by their "pure" environment but its just human nature to get involved, to get invasive. and to change the world.
without humans there wouldnt be umpteen billion chickens, and no more moas.
the future of all organisms isnt dictated only by natural factors as it has been for the history of life on this planet. theres a sinister force partially ignorance, partially survival and in out cases curiosity, and love. a love for the beauty in this world and what countless ages have produced for us to witness in awe.
humans have graduated from the lowly organism to a force of nature unto itself.
attempting to preserve a world we have already changed irreversibly is commendable. but it seems to me unrealistic. especially to think that the captive populations arent being selectively bred. larger casque, specific coloration or pattern, more pronounced rostrum, and most certainly inadvertently hardyness.
i dont see how this could possibly be construed as a bad thing. as long as he sells them off to sound minded fanatics of the hobby, you wont see them accidentally corrupting any gene pools. if fact the majority any chameleon sold likely dont breed at all. they end up as display animals. so thats just a bunch of dead ends
all in all this is a pretty amazing discovery if you ask me.
but thats all just my personal opinion.
i dont advocate trying to hybridize and keeping clean strong lineage should be priority.
sign me up for one btw
thephotoprincess
Avid Member
They look very healthy! Congrats on them!
PantherEnvy
Avid Member
Wow. Half breeds. UNIQUE! Congrats.
italian chameleon
New Member
WOW!! post more pics!!
do the males have spurs on their rear feet like male veileds do?
do the males have spurs on their rear feet like male veileds do?
They just look like baby veileds to me...
fluxlizard
Avid Member
Me too.
There have been numerous cases of female lizards that laid good eggs after either never being bred or being "bred" by other females. In other words- producing viable eggs without input from a male.
I wonder if that could be the case here.
Or a female unkowingly bred by a male veiled and retained sperm but no eggs until after bred by the gracilis.
I would think you could get quite a bit more $$ for them if you wait around to sell them after they show traits of the gracilis...
italian chameleon
New Member
they do! but to me the head looks a bit different from regular baby veileds'
can't wait to see how they will look in a few months
P.s do the males have spurs like male veileds do?
DekuScrub
Avid Member
this crossed my mind when i first read the thread.
i was wondering if a faux mating could actually induce hormones to start firing off that would in effect cause her to fertilize her own eggs.
i suppose its a possibility. im kind of hoping for them to actually be hybrids though.
and what would you expect them to look like anyways? why cant the veiled genes be dominant? and why is the validity of them being hybrids questioned?
Cainschams
New Member
All I have to say is that is one awesome screen name!!!
italian chameleon
New Member
i'm pretty sure that chameleons can't self-fertilize although some reptiles can but through a different genetic mechanism that doesnt involve mating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis)
i think the validity of them being hybrids is questioned cause some people don't like hybrids for ethics reasons and are concerned about them entering the market .they see hybrids as a threat to veileds gene pool , same applies for translucents or locality mixes in panther chams.
to me they look slightly different from veileds as I said before. in fact I agree with kent 67
fluxlizard
Avid Member
You need to dig a little deeper on this.
There are a number of cases that do involve pseudo mating among females and a number of species- not just the ones that specialize in this form of reproduction. It might not have been demonstrated in chameleons yet, but it has in other species of lizard, so should not be a huge surprise if it ever does...
I think it more likely that the female involved here was not a virgin at the time of mating and sperm stored from a previous mating is involved.
It's about size, not age. These are still very small compared to my veileds at 2.5 months...
But you guys might be right- maybe I'm not seeing in the photos what is really there in person.
I still think another month or two could make things more obvious and since since the OP brought it up, the result when the animals are a bit larger/more obvious could then help determine a better price point.
Kent67
Retired Moderator
You're right and that's really more along the lines of what I meant than what I wrote. So, to clarify, I've seen calyptratus with more pronounced casques at much smaller sizes. I think some even hatch with casques equal to if not more developed than these. So, by the size and age that they are, I would expect these to have much more developed casques if they were solely calyptratus. By the way, calyptratus and africanus recognize each other as mates, too.
Monzon
Established Member
While the species distinction is an efficient and meaningful way for humans to classify organisms, it should not be viewed as a set of rigid rules. Many, many populations of living things mix it up along their borders. Some of this mixing actually results in new species over time. Nature is constantly tinkering.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/14/science/14creatures.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/14/science/14creatures.html
fluxlizard
Avid Member
I've never seen that. Ever. LOL
I disagree. Which is neither here nor there in determining whether these are actual hybrids- but I'm looking at photos here of my last bunch that were taken about that age/size and they look about the same as far as casque development.
I was aware of that.
