New Meller comes tomorrow! Need Advice!!!

[bakednowningz]

To do an easy thing of fecals, without taking him to the vet and stressing him out unnecessarily, just get some poop that is still moist in a plastic bag and put it in the fridge until you can get it into the vet to be shipped off.

Ahhh gotcha, so that way they can examine it, and just prescribe him what he'll need, while avoiding the whole terrifying experience for him. That idea seems much better, because the idea of the vet handling him and feeling him. Taking samples and stuff, I'd be freakin out the whole time lol.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I mainly only want to take him to the vet to get recommendation to treat for the parasites, it's one of my main concerns as I have nothing to deal with them now or even later, not to mention they come with a large parasite load. I plan to take him later, as I really don't know how to treat that, I'm used to captive bred Chams. Honestly my first WC Cham.

Hydration is going good! I sprayed him and he drank like a monster had me tiring out, definitely going to need that mist king.
As you mention the shower ordeal, I never bothered to think to aim it at the wall and bounce softer spray back. Good advice! See I love you guys!

For food I'm doing Superworms currently, till the Dubia's come in. I've got them in a shallow bowl with a natural stick going straight through it so they can climb up the stick and he can just take his aim whenever he feels ready. So far all the superworms are still accounted for , but that's okay poor guy doesn't have the stomach to eat yet...

"If necessary" exactly what would be Necessary? If the skin looked worsened or didn't seem to get any better? I have neosporin now, just need to know when would be the right time to give the wounds some.

and yes I've seen some unboxing videos of BackWater, usually in bad shape and never recommended. I'm understanding and optimistic though, I don't expect an animal to be kept in a box for half a day plus, and be in great condition, especially delicate creatures like Chams.

How would I do fecals? this refers to my original scare of not sure how to treat for parasites, being primarily a CB owner of smaller more common Cham breeds.

I don't think you have any idea what this animal went through or how many died for every live one that made it into the hands of the final purchaser. He should have come out of the box from Backwater in as good condition as he went in. That shipping is nothing for him. What you are seeing is the result of the importation process, not the shipping from Backwater.

It would break your heart if you really knew. Your animal was probably knocked out of a tree with a stick and then dumped into a bag or bucket with another 100 chameleons of all shapes and sizes. Eventually, they were taken to wherever they were held until they were exported. They would be over crowded, with not enough water and everything would be wrong. Probably a lot more will die at that export center than will ever be exported, and if it is breathing, it is healthy enough to ship. Then it will be boxed up and shipped to the US through Europe. Tanzania is a 10-hour flight to Europe. If it is an expensive animal like a Parsons, it might be lucky enough to be well taken care of and shipped in its own box. If it is a cheap chameleon like your Mellers and my quads, it will be packed in a big mass of writhing, biting animals. The whole wild-caught industry is cruel. Your animal went through H*ll and must be a really tough animal to still be alive. Treat him like the traumatized wild creature that he is. He is nothing like any captive born.

For the wounds and black marks, I would just watch for changes such as more swelling. I wouldn't put anything on a mark unless it was fresh, but that's just my opinion. Chameleon's in their natural state--in the wild--have an amazing immune system. It is only when we stress them in captivity that they become fragile, so keep that in mind and do everything to make their life as close to "the wild" as you can.

The black marks will take ages to go away. Mine still have awful black mark from rubs, even the ones that started at 12g who now weigh well over 70/80g. The black marks I would worry the most about are the marks along the the dorsal crest--those little tiny black marks at the end of their spinous processes all up his back. That is a rub right down to the bone that left the bone exposed before it scabbed over. They can get a bone infection. One of mine got a bone infection and the tiny bone rotted and fell out. He was treated for the infection and he walled it off. Months and months later, the abscess started to get bigger and at that point the vet decided it was time to lance it and clean it up. Watch for swelling. I would take pictures of my animals' injuries so I would have a photo to actually look at to compare the differences. It is easy for things to get worse slowly without you noticing.

Keep in your mind, especially with wild caughts, treating something can kill the animal. Wild caughts really are different from a captive breds. My vet was constantly weighing the benefit of a particular treatment with the risk that the treatment would kill the animal. That is especially important now for the first few months.

When an animal is stressed there is a cascade of hormones that flood the animal. Stress is a physiological condition, not an emotion. It isn't how they feel, but what is happening to their body that you can't see or know unless you have access to sophisticated testing. One of those hormones that floods the system is cortisol. That hormone suppresses the immune system. If an animal is under chronic stress, their immune system is in tatters and just not functioning, which just sets them up to be that "90-day chameleon."

Since the December shipment of the quads, I've dealt with 9 of those wild caught quads, so I've had a crash course in dealing with wild caughts. I spent a fortune at my vet's because I had so little experience. My vet has been really good about was trying to educate me.

Your chameleon is probably loaded with parasites. He has a much larger parasite infection than he had in the wild because his immune system hasn't worked well since he was captured. Common sense suggests getting that parasite load down is the most important thing you can do, but don't. Wait. The parasites themselves are not likely to kill him any time soon but the treatment might. When there is a massive die off of parasites, there are all kinds of toxic garbage released (maybe JoeVet could explain what goes on) but the presence of so many dead parasites can be a huge problem. He might even get a blocked intestinal tract from the massive amount of dead round worms.

Parasites aren't just in the intestinal tract. Their life cycle takes them through the body. They don't get into the circulatory system, the lungs, the liver or the muscles by opening any doors and swimming through. No, they pierced through the intestinal wall--and the intestines are full of bacteria--and out into the body. All those piercings are potential sites for entry of infection throughout the body. That's why my vet thinks OldChamKeepers shotgun treatment with antibiotics for crashing wild caughts works.

As far as parasites are concerned, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

The importer of my quads (also the importer of your Mellers, I believe) lives in the city near where I live so I was able to use him as a resource. He was adamant that they not be wormed until they had been really well settled into captivity. He was also adamant that when you worm, you use much lower dosages than normal. You don't want a massive parasite die off, you just want to reduce the number of parasites. He said the biggest concern is hydration, hydration, hydration.

There are a few reasons to delay worming your newly acquired wild caught. It's a given that he is loaded in parasites. First, let his immune system deal with it and get the numbers under control. Remember, mass die offs of parasites are dangerous. Second, he had and possibly still has hydration issues, so adding meds that suppress the appetite (and probably drinking) and are hard on the kidneys is not what you want to do. You might cure the parasite problem but kill the animal with kidney failure from chronic dehydration or toxic shock. Worming itself is quite stressful. Others with much more experience than I have might just put a drop of Panacur (I think they use the strength used for horses that is sold as a paste) on their nose or on a feeder but I want to be a little more accurate with my dosing than that.

I went the expensive route when treating my wild caughts. Each one has had multiple fecals done by a vet. My vet and I expect to be dealing with parasites until the day these animals die because there are so many just sitting in their tissues waiting to be awakened to continue their journey to the intestinal tract. I was/am very fussy with my bio security, washing my hands after any interaction with each animal or their cage. Anything that goes into a cage stays there or is flushed down the toilet or thrown out in the garbage. I am meticulous about picking up stool several times a day. Even though the last fecals were clear, there are lots of parasites lurking in their tissues, just waiting to come out.

Each of my animals has been to the vet at least once, partly because she refused to prescribe enough worming medication to do my whole group unless she had seen each animal. By law, she was correct, but it really was a waste of my money. It would have been a lot cheaper for me to deal with my shipment as a group and practice herd management. You are only dealing with one, so it isn't such a big issue.

I think I've had a pretty good success rate with my wild caught quads and part of that is because I was such a novice, I panicked at the slightest drop in their condition and took them in to the vet sooner rather than later. They are housed in my office and I watched--still watch--them constantly. I kept really accurate weight records, so I knew immediately how they were doing.

I think it's great you want to consult with your vet about the ongoing parasite problem you will be dealing with. I would suggest you take a fresh stool--one you know was produced within the past hour or two, wrap it in plastic wrap and put it in the fridge and immediately get it to the vet's. You want it fresh so they can find some of the single-celled parasites that will die (and often not be found) in an older stool sample. Your vet will probably find all kinds of bacteria they have never seen before but those are probably natural gut flora. We never treated for the numerous giant bacteria she found nor did we sent it off for culture. It wasn't bothering the animal so we left it alone.

If you take a stool in now, it will have a much higher parasite load than it will have in two weeks as the immune system starts to kick into gear and get control of the parasites. If the animal is doing well--and you can tell by observation and keeping accurate weights--I would hold off. I don't think treating for parasites now is in the animal's best interest and I know I would be unable to NOT treat knowing what the animal was harboring.

I don't think your vet is going to be able to tell you much about the condition of your chameleon. If he is eating--you might only know by finding stool--and holding/gaining weight you don't have an immediate problem. My vet relies on what I tell her, on my feelings on the condition/behavior of the animal to get an idea of what is going on. Unless it is really, really, really sick or has an obvious issue a check up isn't going to tell you much and will only stress the animal a lot. A check up is a waste of time on a healthy animal, and even a sick animal will be pretty excited by the event and appear strong and healthy at a vet's. The danger in taking your wild caught to the vet is that they will be once again incredibly stressed for hours. It is not without cost to your animal. Zoos have the vet come to the animal so the stress is much less.

I think you need to improve your feeding. Few of my wild caughts have ever eaten from a dish. Dubias are not a natural food and don't behave in ways that will trigger a feeding response from a chameleon, whose natural diet is mainly flying insects--bees I think. (African bees have a very weak poison in their sting, unlike the docile English honey bee.) You really need to get some bugs in that will attract his attention. Why haven't you given him crickets? I watched cages of crowded, newly imported chameleons (super stressed) that snapped up crickets. The importer told me that in general the wild caughts were good about eating, even when stressed.

Others will recommend an immediate shotgun approach to parasites. (That's where you treat without finding out what the animal has.) I don't for the reasons listed above. I think you can do more damage by treating immediately. Let him get over the importation process first.

Wild caughts are an incredible challenge but they will teach you so much about keeping chameleons. Good luck.

 

[bakednowningz]

That is alot to respond to lols where to start...

I've seen the videos where they literally knock them down from tree's and stuff em in a white bag then into a small box with another 100 chameleons tossing and turning, I completely know how rough the trip must have been for them after seeing that. I think of it as slavery was back in the day, clearly mistreated and with only one thing mainly in mind, money no actual real care for the animal as they just snag up tons of them.

I'm glad you've went in depth about the parasite problem, like I said I've only ever had Captive breds, so this parasite issue is new to me. I can see why now, it is incredibly awful to treat for it, being a problem you're going to deal with the the end of the creatures life. The idea is to generally treat for this "Passive" problem over-time as it does not cause (or seems not to be) any issues right at this moment, so since there is no immediate danger there is no reason to further stress the animal about a visit that may not even be helpful, just harmful. Got it! Will keep all this knew knowledge with parasites in mind.

As far as an update. He drinks great I'm so happy by the amount of drinking he does makes me feel much more confident in his well being, I spray him throughout the day, and am trying to get my hands on a mister even if its temporary till the Mist King, as I do see them drinking an incredible amount and it would just make my life so much easier if I had a machine doing the work for me beside it being more efficient than possibly me forgetting to mist him one hour or etc. Today I left a shallow cup, with a stick through it that allows the Superworms to climb it, and hang out on the stick. This morning I left 5, and only 1 remains, I could not seem to find it in the cage and due to me covering it so he doesn't stress from movement around the house I did not get to catch him actually in action, but I can assume hes eaten and will keep an eye out for stool, and continue to leave some superworms in the cup so he can eat freely. I'm really glad to see that some are gone atleast him eatting takes heaps off my shoulders.

Now you say the dubia's aren't his natural food, I'd prefer him to feed off those because you can gutload them and they don't stick and easily maintained. That being said I still care for his well being and if flying insects are more his diet I can give him them now, and slowly ween to Dubias later.

Where can I get flying insects though? What kind? and can I just leave them flying in the cage and let him hunt for them naturally?

He seems extremely docile and nice and it's only the 2nd day. Earlier I decided to make some changes in his cages with all the advice I received . Created more horizontal vines, mostly towards the top of the cage where he seems to hang out, he doesnt seem to want to wander down whatsoever, not even toward the center for better humidity or to cool off. He just well go from the top left to the top right vines and hang there. Anyways while I was doing these minor changes, he was on one side of the cage and I began making changes to the other side not to mess with him, and decided I'll change the other side once he moves from there. As I was making changes, he calmly walked up to my side and reached out to grab my hand, until he was completely resting on my hand, was very nice and docile, no black spots during any of this, until after I moved my hand from out of the cage to replace him on the side I was not working on, then he grew some spots as he got off my hand and back to his perch. He seems very healthy and active so far, and I like where this is going.

 

[jpowell86]

Glad to hear he is drinking and eating!! I agree with jajeanpierre about the importation process, it's awful. I have worked in the herpetological departments at two of the major zoos here in Texas and was able to see the horrors of the whole process. I'm glad you set up the horizontal branches. You said that he is not coming down the cage at all.....unlike other chameleons, I'll use panthers for example, Mellers prefer the horizontal movement in a cage as opposed to the vertical. This is why the challenge of keeping them captive in a cage environment v. free range can be difficult. Most cages, just like yours, was made with the intention of vertical movement...which is what most chameleons want, just not Mellers. Once he is at the maximum vertical position that he likes, he is going to want to move laterally. As far as the feeding is concerned, I am lucky because where I live it is easy for me to go out away from public areas and collect grasshoppers and katydids for my guys. Which....in my opinion is their favorite. I also go to the local pet store here and get the cups of hornworms. None of my Mellers will eat the hornworms, but when I let them turn into hawkmoths, they all go crazy for them. They love mantids as well. Macumba has been with me the longest...I've had him for almost 5 years this November and this diet has been very successful. Just try to keep the diet varied as they have no qualms with not eating for lengths of time if they don't feel the food offered is good enough.

 

[Carlton]

That is alot to respond to lols where to start...

I've seen the videos where they literally knock them down from tree's and stuff em in a white bag then into a small box with another 100 chameleons tossing and turning, I completely know how rough the trip must have been for them after seeing that. I think of it as slavery was back in the day, clearly mistreated and with only one thing mainly in mind, money no actual real care for the animal as they just snag up tons of them.

I'm glad you've went in depth about the parasite problem, like I said I've only ever had Captive breds, so this parasite issue is new to me. I can see why now, it is incredibly awful to treat for it, being a problem you're going to deal with the the end of the creatures life. The idea is to generally treat for this "Passive" problem over-time as it does not cause (or seems not to be) any issues right at this moment, so since there is no immediate danger there is no reason to further stress the animal about a visit that may not even be helpful, just harmful. Got it! Will keep all this knew knowledge with parasites in mind.

As far as an update. He drinks great I'm so happy by the amount of drinking he does makes me feel much more confident in his well being, I spray him throughout the day, and am trying to get my hands on a mister even if its temporary till the Mist King, as I do see them drinking an incredible amount and it would just make my life so much easier if I had a machine doing the work for me beside it being more efficient than possibly me forgetting to mist him one hour or etc. Today I left a shallow cup, with a stick through it that allows the Superworms to climb it, and hang out on the stick. This morning I left 5, and only 1 remains, I could not seem to find it in the cage and due to me covering it so he doesn't stress from movement around the house I did not get to catch him actually in action, but I can assume hes eaten and will keep an eye out for stool, and continue to leave some superworms in the cup so he can eat freely. I'm really glad to see that some are gone atleast him eatting takes heaps off my shoulders.

Now you say the dubia's aren't his natural food, I'd prefer him to feed off those because you can gutload them and they don't stick and easily maintained. That being said I still care for his well being and if flying insects are more his diet I can give him them now, and slowly ween to Dubias later.

Where can I get flying insects though? What kind? and can I just leave them flying in the cage and let him hunt for them naturally?

He seems extremely docile and nice and it's only the 2nd day. Earlier I decided to make some changes in his cages with all the advice I received . Created more horizontal vines, mostly towards the top of the cage where he seems to hang out, he doesnt seem to want to wander down whatsoever, not even toward the center for better humidity or to cool off. He just well go from the top left to the top right vines and hang there. Anyways while I was doing these minor changes, he was on one side of the cage and I began making changes to the other side not to mess with him, and decided I'll change the other side once he moves from there. As I was making changes, he calmly walked up to my side and reached out to grab my hand, until he was completely resting on my hand, was very nice and docile, no black spots during any of this, until after I moved my hand from out of the cage to replace him on the side I was not working on, then he grew some spots as he got off my hand and back to his perch. He seems very healthy and active so far, and I like where this is going.

"He" may well be a docile cham, but right now everything about his travels are subduing his true personality. Some melleri are very calm, almost social, and some are super stressy and reactive. It will take a month or so before you can really judge what he'll tolerate. Be watchful...melleri can seem to be acclimated and then just when you think you're over the hump they shut down, stop eating, break out in health problems. IMHO they do things more slowly than many other species...they mature slower, live longer, take longer to develop health issues (I feel its because they are immensely brave and tough things out), and take longer to get over them too.

 

[bakednowningz]

Gotcha I'll try to keep a variety of meals for him. I really want to see this through they seem incredibly unique and I just love the enormous sizes they can reach. Like I said I plan to expand the cage, I see him getting much larger and theres noway the cage will accommodate him later, when I get the chance to dump some more cash in him I'm totally gonna expand it further. What I was thinking was being that he probably wont ever come down once I expand it upwards and make the top portion wider, I was thinking about closing off the bottom half to perhaps another species of chameleon or even a different reptile. Anything that uses somewhat near the same climate and hopefully they get along with? totally had my hopes up for the bottom portion gettin used

 

[Carlton]

Gotcha I'll try to keep a variety of meals for him. I really want to see this through they seem incredibly unique and I just love the enormous sizes they can reach. Like I said I plan to expand the cage, I see him getting much larger and theres noway the cage will accommodate him later, when I get the chance to dump some more cash in him I'm totally gonna expand it further. What I was thinking was being that he probably wont ever come down once I expand it upwards and make the top portion wider, I was thinking about closing off the bottom half to perhaps another species of chameleon or even a different reptile. Anything that uses somewhat near the same climate and hopefully they get along with? totally had my hopes up for the bottom portion gettin used

I'd be surprised that a melleri wouldn't at least patrol all areas of its territory, even the lower area. Putting another cham in the lower area would be stressful for it. Most species don't like being close to the ground. As for using the lower portion for another reptile, your melleri will be territorial and will probably display or try to get at the "neighbor" if it can see it. A snake will be seen as a predator, another lizard as an intruder, and neither animal will be able to get away.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Gotcha I'll try to keep a variety of meals for him. I really want to see this through they seem incredibly unique and I just love the enormous sizes they can reach. Like I said I plan to expand the cage, I see him getting much larger and theres noway the cage will accommodate him later, when I get the chance to dump some more cash in him I'm totally gonna expand it further. What I was thinking was being that he probably wont ever come down once I expand it upwards and make the top portion wider, I was thinking about closing off the bottom half to perhaps another species of chameleon or even a different reptile. Anything that uses somewhat near the same climate and hopefully they get along with? totally had my hopes up for the bottom portion gettin used

I would not consider having another chameleon anywhere near where anything from your Meller's cage can fall into the other chameleon's cage. I consider my quads toxic and will be to the day they die. They really are that loaded with parasites. Your Mellers is not likely to be any different.

Don't worry about his cage size now, worry about the amount of cover you can give him. I had one quad that the only reason I knew she was alive was that I couldn't find her body on the bare floor of her cage. She disappeared if I came into the room.

After speaking countless times to the importer, I think it is very unusual for your wild caught to not be eating. I read on the forum here that it is common for new animals to go off their feed for a few days. I don't think that holds true with wild caughts who are not used to the plentiful supply of food our captive raised ones are. They take food when it is available. They are a completely different animal from a captive hatched one.

As I mentioned, dubia roaches are not a natural food source. They hide under things and are only active at night. Flying insects probably made up most of your Meller's diet before he arrived on US shores. There are all kinds of flying insects you can get, but not as easily as crickets. You want to stimulate the feeding/hunting response which means movement. Why don't you try crickets? Dubias don't move much, at least mine dodn't. Green insects are also really attractive.

I would expect your Mellers to be much more sensitive to supplements than a captive bred is, both as a montane species and as a wild caught. Montanes need a light hand when supplementing and wild caughts and even lighter hand.

Sorry for the long-winded responses. Wild caughts are not easy to keep alive and I hate the tremendous wastage.

Good luck.

 

[bakednowningz]

I would not consider having another chameleon anywhere near where anything from your Meller's cage can fall into the other chameleon's cage. I consider my quads toxic and will be to the day they die. They really are that loaded with parasites. Your Mellers is not likely to be any different.

Don't worry about his cage size now, worry about the amount of cover you can give him. I had one quad that the only reason I knew she was alive was that I couldn't find her body on the bare floor of her cage. She disappeared if I came into the room.

After speaking countless times to the importer, I think it is very unusual for your wild caught to not be eating. I read on the forum here that it is common for new animals to go off their feed for a few days. I don't think that holds true with wild caughts who are not used to the plentiful supply of food our captive raised ones are. They take food when it is available. They are a completely different animal from a captive hatched one.

As I mentioned, dubia roaches are not a natural food source. They hide under things and are only active at night. Flying insects probably made up most of your Meller's diet before he arrived on US shores. There are all kinds of flying insects you can get, but not as easily as crickets. You want to stimulate the feeding/hunting response which means movement. Why don't you try crickets? Dubias don't move much, at least mine dodn't. Green insects are also really attractive.

I would expect your Mellers to be much more sensitive to supplements than a captive bred is, both as a montane species and as a wild caught. Montanes need a light hand when supplementing and wild caughts and even lighter hand.

Sorry for the long-winded responses. Wild caughts are not easy to keep alive and I hate the tremendous wastage.

Good luck.

No no not at all, it was very very good information and after this is why I'm here, I know Mellers can be difficult and I need all the information/advice about them I can have.

By Cover you mean what exactly?

 

[Andee]

Get into Giant Green Banana Roaches if you can, they both fly and are green. They tend to be the size of a large cricket when they are adults and breed quite well when your colony gets established.

 

[jajeanpierre]

No no not at all, it was very very good information and after this is why I'm here, I know Mellers can be difficult and I need all the information/advice about them I can have.

By Cover you mean what exactly?

Cover means hiding places where you can't see him. I use live plants but will use fake stuff to give cover where a live plant doesn't reach. Stuff the cage with it. Give him some places he can be out in the open, but make sure he can retreat and disappear if he wants.

Mellers are really heavy drinkers and you will be happier with an automatic mister.

 

[bakednowningz]

Awesome! Problem solved, now just gotta find where to get em haha...

I didn't want to go with crickets because they stink and I felt they're small so it would take so many for him to actually get full

 

[Andee]

Giant Green Banana Roaches can be found in the Classified section if Nick Barta still sells them. They tend to be a little pricey, but in the right conditions their population explodes and they breed really easy. So it's no issue keeping them and they definitely don't smell like crickets. They are awesome feeders.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Awesome! Problem solved, now just gotta find where to get em haha...

I didn't want to go with crickets because they stink and I felt they're small so it would take so many for him to actually get full

What you end up feeding is not necessarily what you should be feeding now.

I have green banana roaches. I like them for hand feeding only. I can get one of my wildest wild caughts to take one from my hand--the same wild caught that would dive for cover whenever I entered the room. They have their place, but also have their problems. They are not active in the day and hide under anything. They are not something that I would recommend for something like a newly imported wild caught.

Crickets only stink if you have a die off or your cricket bin is dirty. Get some crickets. They are bigger than any banana roach Nick Barta has sent me.

If you are ordering banana roaches from Nick, get some of his stick bugs, either the pink wings (more active) or the Indian stick bugs. I fed full grown stick bugs to my breeding-sized quads.

He really should be eating something. Sometimes if they don't eat, it sets them up to continue to not eat and it can become a downward spiral. I wouldn't worry about a healthy captive bred, but that's not what you are dealing with. He's very fragile. There is a reason they are known as the 90-day chameleon.

 

[bakednowningz]

Cover means hiding places where you can't see him. I use live plants but will use fake stuff to give cover where a live plant doesn't reach. Stuff the cage with it. Give him some places he can be out in the open, but make sure he can retreat and disappear if he wants.

Mellers are really heavy drinkers and you will be happier with an automatic mister.

Right now I basically have a blanket over the cage to not stress him with any movement in the house. I'm trying to only reveal myself when I plan to present him something. Like misting or food, so he can associate whenever I come by and show myself it's related to something good and not stressing, but rather a treat to have my presence.

He has plenty of cover toward the center, the center piece is surrounded by 3 plants, but he can't really grip on those plants they're mainly for him to stay hidden if he pleases, but theres nowhere near the center where he can sit AND hide. He could definately hide, but that would require him to go down which he probably isn't comfortable doing yet being he doesn't feel it's his territory.