Newly arrived chameleon with weird burns or bruises.

You said..."I ended up taking her to the vet this past week. They confirmed it is a fungal infection- they prescribed oral Terbinafine, as well as doing silvadene for topical"...did thy say what the fungus was? Did they rest for CANV?

You said ..."They could not tell for sure if she is gravid- they think she is, but the vet isn’t familiar with Oustalets chameleons, and wasn’t sure if her colors were gravid or not (she was highly stressed being taken to a vet clinic)"...no talk of doing an X-ray?

You said...I am worried about her eggs. I purchased her at the end of March and was told she was gravid. When she arrived she was- and still seems to be showing gravid coloration. Her stomach is also much bigger than her sister I also purchased. However- she has now been gravid for at least 47 days. This seems prolonged"...I'm not sure about the time frame...but I'll look into it.

You said..."I palpated her stomach and can feel lumps. So I think she is carrying eggs. But by the online literature they usually lay between 30-45 days"...again...looking into it.

You said..."She has an appropriate egg laying bin- 2 actually. A bucket and a plastic bin. She has shown no interest- and doesn’t spend much time in the lower half of the enclosure"...if I remember correctly they are a bit picky about laying the eggs. It's been quite a few years since I've had oustelets.

You said..."not sure what to do. I guess sit and wait"...for now keep an eye out for decline in health that might indicate eggbinding.
 
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kinyonga said:
I'll be adding to this post for a while so keep checking back to it...
This is full of information...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/breeding-oustalets.28705/page-3

Eggs...gravid colors...
https://becomingcliche.wordpress.com/2015/06/12/hurry-up-and-wait-hatching-oustalets-chameleons/
https://becomingcliche.wordpress.co...-the-good-part-hatching-oustalets-chameleons/

More...
https://www.reptilesmagazine.com/oustalets-chameleon-care-and-breeding/
Click to expand...
Great posts, really appreciate the insight. I have read all of the links you have posted.

Her colors fluctuate, sometimes she shows what seem to be gravid colors, other times she shows more stress colors- very light grey greens and whites with a mix of very dark black spots.

I am watching her closely. She continues to behave normal. I have been placing her in an outdoor enclosure during the day (we have 80s and sunny here in SoCal). This enclosure also has a plastic tub with a mixture of soil and mulch- just in case she decides to lay.

As far as the vet visit- they did not take or test skin samples. She did offer, but said she would anesthetize the chameleon and it could be dangerous for her, since chameleons don’t do well with anesthesia. So I chose not to have it done.

The vet also said we could do an x-Ray to see if she was carrying eggs. She felt that if she was/is gravid that she isn’t carrying many eggs. However, compared to my other female oustalets who is in perfect health and of similar size- she has a much larger abdomen. And weighs more.

I opted not to do the x Ray. At the time I was focused on the fungal infection and assumed she would lay her eggs when she is ready to lay.
But after having her back home and thinking on it, I sort of wish I would have just done the x-Ray for peace of mind.

I wondered about her picky-ness when it comes to egg laying. The bucket is half filled with a vermiculite mulch mixture- it’s lighter in color that the soil much mixture in the deep plastic bin.

so I feel like she has options- but being a wild chameleon, these are probably unnatural for her.
Maybe I will try filling the entire bottom of her enclosure with soil.
 
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Also, I’ve seen my panther chameleons when they aren’t happy with their egg laying bin, they will spend a great deal of time wandering around the bottom of the cage. Digging at the corners or at the base of potted plants. My female oustalets isn’t doing any of that. She still spends most of her time at the upper half, of the enclosure.
My brother who lives in another state just had a female oustalets who laid its first clutch of eggs. He had a container of dirt/sand for laying- and she didn’t use it. She ended up laying all her eggs on the bare bottom of the enclosure. She, like mine, is also a wild caught female. So maybe there is something to them hanging onto the eggs because they are no longer in the wild?
 
When a chameleon might be carrying eggs I wouldn't moving her back and forth from one cage to another.

It isn't good news that your brothers female dropped the eggs in the bottom of the cage. You said your brother HAD...did it die?
 
You said..."Great posts, really appreciate the insight. I have read all of the links you have posted"...glad you liked them.

You said...Her colors fluctuate, sometimes she shows what seem to be gravid colors, other times she shows more stress colors- very light grey greens and whites with a mix of very dark black spots"...when does she show the different colors and patterns? When the other chameleons are within her sight? When she's inside or outside?

You said..."I am watching her closely. She continues to behave normal. I have been placing her in an outdoor enclosure during the day (we have 80s and sunny here in SoCal). This enclosure also has a plastic tub with a mixture of soil and mulch- just in case she decides to lay"...mulch?

You said..."As far as the vet visit- they did not take or test skin samples. She did offer, but said she would anesthetize the chameleon and it could be dangerous for her, since chameleons don’t do well with anesthesia. So I chose not to have it done"... Don't recall ever losing a chameleon when it was put under anesthetic. If it's CANV, I don't know if Terbinafine will work on it or not. We've always used itraconazole. If it's CANV it's important to treat it well.

You said..."The vet also said we could do an x-Ray to see if she was carrying eggs. She felt that if she was/is gravid that she isn’t carrying many eggs. However, compared to my other female oustalets who is in perfect health and of similar size- she has a much larger abdomen. And weighs more."...so she likely has eggs.

You said..."I opted not to do the x Ray. At the time I was focused on the fungal infection and assumed she would lay her eggs when she is ready to lay.
But after having her back home and thinking on it, I sort of wish I would have just done the x-Ray for peace of mind"....that I understand!

You said..."I wondered about her picky-ness when it comes to egg laying. The bucket is half filled with a vermiculite mulch mixture- it’s lighter in color that the soil much mixture in the deep plastic bin"...vermiculite is for incubating the eggs in...not a good choice for a laying substrate IMHO...I would worry about its earring to an impaction if she ingests some while digging for one thing. I don't think she'll be happy with it either.

You said..."so I feel like she has options- but being a wild chameleon, these are probably unnatural for her.
Maybe I will try filling the entire bottom of her enclosure with soil." ...it might work depending on the soil.
 
You said...."So maybe there is something to them hanging onto the eggs because they are no longer in the wild?"....they usually habpng on to them because they aren't happy with the substrate and/or laying site in captivity IMHO. In the wild it can have more to do with weather sometimes IMHO.
 
kinyonga said:
When a chameleon might be carrying eggs I wouldn't moving her back and forth from one cage to another.

It isn't good news that your brothers female dropped the eggs in the bottom of the cage. You said your brother HAD...did it die?
Click to expand...
I hope you didn’t take it as though I meant that as good news. Only an observation. It’s bad that she layer them on the bottom of the cage.
My brother takes very good care of his animals. He runs a wildlife rescue facility in Florida and has 15 years of experience with reptiles- both native and non native. He helps run Wildlife Inc in manatee county and also has his own facility Wild World Rescue and Sanctuary.
The goal him and myself had for these oustalets was to create a stable captive population here in the United States. I plan on flying down to Florida this summer to help build a 20x20 outdoor open air enclosure for them- with Madagascar native trees.
Oustalets used to exist in the wild in Florida. Specially a private avocado grove in Homestead Florida (so technically not pristine habitat, but a disturbed man made habitat).
however due to over collection from chameleon hunters who hunt for profit- the population is likely extirpated.

Our goal was NOT to introduce oustalets back into the Florida wild, but to simply keep a well maintained captive population outside of Madagascar. We find the oustalets to be beautiful and under appreciated.

Anyhow, sorry to get long winded. His female is doing great. Currently his male and female oustalets are housed in separate outdoor enclosures.

I think you are correct about moving my female back and forth. I will just keep her inside for now. The night time temperatures outside get too low currently. My thinking was just that the natural sunlight and being surrounded by lots of plants and a nice breeze would help her feel more at home- and allow her to lay her eggs.
 
younsaid..."I hope you didn’t take it as though I meant that as good news. Only an observation. It’s bad that she layer them on the bottom of the cage"...I surmised that it was an observation!

You said.."My brother takes very good care of his animals. He runs a wildlife rescue facility in Florida and has 15 years of experience with reptiles- both native and non native. He helps run Wildlife Inc in manatee county and also has his own facility Wild World Rescue and Sanctuary.
The goal him and myself had for these oustalets was to create a stable captive population here in the United States. I plan on flying down to Florida this summer to help build a 20x20 outdoor open air enclosure for them- with Madagascar native trees.
Oustalets used to exist in the wild in Florida. Specially a private avocado grove in Homestead Florida (so technically not pristine habitat, but a disturbed man made habitat).
however due to over collection from chameleon hunters who hunt for profit- the population is likely extirpated.

Our goal was NOT to introduce oustalets back into the Florida wild, but to simply keep a well maintained captive population outside of Madagascar. We find the oustalets to be beautiful and under appreciated"... Good on you and your brother! I love the oustalets chameleons...well...newly love all the chameleons...and all the other critters on this earth too for that matter.

You said..."Anyhow, sorry to get long winded. His female is doing great. Currently his male and female oustalets are housed in separate outdoor enclosures"...good to hear!

You said..."I think you are correct about moving my female back and forth. I will just keep her inside for now. The night time temperatures outside get too low currently. My thinking was just that the natural sunlight and being surrounded by lots of plants and a nice breeze would help her feel more at home- and allow her to lay her eggs"...the sunlight is good for them...but when they are gravid I think peace/lower stress is better.
 
The reason dropping the eggs is not a good thing IMHO is that it means they are not happy with the sites offered but reached a point where nature has given them no choice but to lay the eggs...and often it will be that the next clutch will be one that results in eggbinding. There's no way to know if that's the way it will go or not though.
 
Last edited:
kinyonga said:
You said...."So maybe there is something to them hanging onto the eggs because they are no longer in the wild?"....they usually habpng on to them because they aren't happy with the substrate and/or laying site in captivity IMHO. In the wild it can have more to do with weather sometimes IMHO.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the great input Kinyonga!
I appreciate you chiming in on this.

the Mulch is actually called “garden soil” it’s a mixture of organic compost and soil. I had some on hand and figured it was more naturalistic and would work well for digging tunnels in. I mixed top soil in with it, and then vermiculite with it in the other laying bucket.
 
kinyonga said:
The real son dropping the eggs is not a good thing IMHO is that it means they are not happy with the sites offered but reached a point where nature has given them no choice but to lay the eggs...and often it will be that the next clutch will be one that results in eggbinding. There's no way o know if that's the way it will go or not though.
Click to expand...
Yeah I explained to my brother that the bin was not adequate or that she was not comfortable in her enclosure. He has experience with chameleons, so his bin does meet the typical needs- but maybe her enclosure being near the ground outdoors she was trying to reach it and couldn’t. Just my guess.
 
kinyonga said:
How long has it been since the female dropped the eggs?
Click to expand...
About 1 month now?
I asked how she was doing the other day. He says she appears to be showing receptive coloration again. Bright Reds and browns. Still eating and behaving normally according to him.
 
kinyonga said:
The reason dropping the eggs is not a good thing IMHO is that it means they are not happy with the sites offered but reached a point where nature has given them no choice but to lay the eggs...and often it will be that the next clutch will be one that results in eggbinding. There's no way to know if that's the way it will go or not though.
Click to expand...
If my chameleon has an egg binding issue, what can be done? My brother says warm water soaking can help, but I fear that is just more stress.
 
kinyonga said:
You said..."Great posts, really appreciate the insight. I have read all of the links you have posted"...glad you liked them.

You said...Her colors fluctuate, sometimes she shows what seem to be gravid colors, other times she shows more stress colors- very light grey greens and whites with a mix of very dark black spots"...when does she show the different colors and patterns? When the other chameleons are within her sight? When she's inside or outside?

You said..."I am watching her closely. She continues to behave normal. I have been placing her in an outdoor enclosure during the day (we have 80s and sunny here in SoCal). This enclosure also has a plastic tub with a mixture of soil and mulch- just in case she decides to lay"...mulch?

You said..."As far as the vet visit- they did not take or test skin samples. She did offer, but said she would anesthetize the chameleon and it could be dangerous for her, since chameleons don’t do well with anesthesia. So I chose not to have it done"... Don't recall ever losing a chameleon when it was put under anesthetic. If it's CANV, I don't know if Terbinafine will work on it or not. We've always used itraconazole. If it's CANV it's important to treat it well.

You said..."The vet also said we could do an x-Ray to see if she was carrying eggs. She felt that if she was/is gravid that she isn’t carrying many eggs. However, compared to my other female oustalets who is in perfect health and of similar size- she has a much larger abdomen. And weighs more."...so she likely has eggs.

You said..."I opted not to do the x Ray. At the time I was focused on the fungal infection and assumed she would lay her eggs when she is ready to lay.
But after having her back home and thinking on it, I sort of wish I would have just done the x-Ray for peace of mind"....that I understand!

You said..."I wondered about her picky-ness when it comes to egg laying. The bucket is half filled with a vermiculite mulch mixture- it’s lighter in color that the soil much mixture in the deep plastic bin"...vermiculite is for incubating the eggs in...not a good choice for a laying substrate IMHO...I would worry about its earring to an impaction if she ingests some while digging for one thing. I don't think she'll be happy with it either.

You said..."so I feel like she has options- but being a wild chameleon, these are probably unnatural for her.
Maybe I will try filling the entire bottom of her enclosure with soil." ...it might work depending on the soil.
Click to expand...
Also wanted to mention the coloration thing. It’s pretty much what I would consider her stress colors 75% of the time. Her indoor enclosure is not near the other chameleons. So she has no line of sight with them. The only thing she can see is a fish tank with plants and guppies.

As for the vermiculite, I was just trying to give her an alternative to the darker potting soil mulch mixture.

I may just call the vet and ask if I can bring her in for an x-Ray.
As for the fungal infection, she is already due for a recheck in 3 weeks.

Thank you again for all your insight Kinyonga. You are the exact reason I went to these forums!
 
I was asking about the color changes because sometimes they react to a different environment...taking them out of their cage can put them "on guard" because they seem to regard their cage as their territory and have to watch for predators when out of it. There are other things like this that may make them drop the gravid colors sometimes and take on stress colors.

Regarding the fungus...if it's CANV...you might like to read this...
https://www.uamh.ca/Research/_/medi...NV_mycoses_in_chameleons_JZooWildMedJSTOR.pdf
 
kinyonga said:
I was asking about the color changes because sometimes they react to a different environment...taking them out of their cage can put them "on guard" because they seem to regard their cage as their territory and have to watch for predators when out of it. There are other things like this that may make them drop the gravid colors sometimes and take on stress colors.

Regarding the fungus...if it's CANV...you might like to read this...
https://www.uamh.ca/Research/_/medi...NV_mycoses_in_chameleons_JZooWildMedJSTOR.pdf
Click to expand...
Just wanted to update my oustalets status.
I had a biopsy done. Came back negative for CANV/yellow fungus- which seemed like good news.
However, her overall health seemed to decline after her biopsy. Her abdominal cavity became swollen, made a new appointment to get her looked at- sadly she passed away that very same day.

I’m not a doctor nor formally medically trained, but I did a hap hazard necropsy upon her death just to see if she was egg bound or what. She was carrying no eggs, and seemed to be full of yellow fluid. Up until a couple days before her death, she was eating, and drinking. Although it was less than normal. She also was less active the days prior to her death.

I wish I had better news. My personal opinion was that the daily administration of oral terbinafine and topical silvadene was a big stress for her. I believe she was likely wild caught and the stress of being shipped and handled caused an existing fungal infection to flare up. This possibly caused a secondary bacterial infection that became septic.

Her sister seems to be in perfect health. And I aim to keep it that way.
 
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