Nosy Faly's without red rain?

[Texas Ranger]

Supposing some of the odd colored individuals aren't from a crossing between introduced locales, I wonder if the colors would be from mutation or from some kind of recessive trait? It's too darn bad females dont show the same colors as males or even muted male colors. i guess that's part of the fun if baby oanthers though. You never really know for sure what the boys might look like.

Now, I have another question. Have any breeders who have bred "proven" falys for multiple generations (like no wild blood for 2-3 generations) ever gotten a baby that was abnormally colored? It seems many of the "rain-less" or otherwise "oddly colored" animals are CH or have a wild caught mother thrown in the mix somewhere.

Edit: texas ranger, I have never seen an albino chameleon that was proven to be albino. I know about the jacksons that was supposedly albino, but the owner had a reputation of being a scam artist. And i havent heard of anyone confirming that it was indeed albino and not just a stressed or over heated red-phase female.

Translucent chams are around that is a recessive trait also a form of albino or snow lacking pigments.

 

[pssh]

Translucent chams are around that is a recessive trait also a form of albino or snow lacking pigments.

The translucent trait is co-dominant type of partial leucism (sort of like albinism, but it's a reduction of all pigments and not just melanin. The eyes are usually normal in leucistic/partially leucistic animals.) If the animals are homozygous carriers then they are high ends, and heterozygous carriers are low ends. So if the animal is a carrier at all, the translucent-ness appears on the animal. I don't know about "snow" though.

 

[Texas Ranger]

The translucent trait is co-dominant type of partial leucism (sort of like albinism, but it's a reduction of all pigments and not just melanin. The eyes are usually normal in leucistic/partially leucistic animals.) If the animals are homozygous carriers then they are high ends, and heterozygous carriers are low ends. So if the animal is a carrier at all, the translucent-ness appears on the animal. I don't know about "snow" though.

It was my understanding just like in all other animals the trans chams are recessive meaning you breed a visual to a normal all the babies come out normal het for trans. As I have seen many people do. But to get the visual you have to breed two hets or 2 visuals or a visual to a het. If you don't then there will be no offspring visual trans just normal het trans. If it was a co-dom or dominant trait then you could breed a visual trans to a normal and get all trans or at least one and I have yet to see that happen so imo its not a co-dom at all but is a resessive or simple recessive . Oh and leucistic is another form of albino and is just like snow all one in the same just a little different look and mutation and all 3 are recessive traits..... There is no such co-dom in the genetic table that can be heterozygous there are only visuals or normals with no het for a co-dom in the offspring ..... To get a clutch at all with visuals and Heterozygous it has to be recessive or simple recessive. So with you saying there are hets that is recessive and not a co-dom at all.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Oh and for everyone that is following this there het,HET,or hets means Heterozygous meaning carrier of a recessive trait. Just so know one goes what is het

 

[Trace]

It was my understanding just like in all other animals the trans chams are recessive meaning you breed a visual to a normal all the babies come out normal het for trans. As I have seen many people do. But to get the visual you have to breed two hets or 2 visuals or a visual to a het. If you don't then there will be no offspring visual trans just normal het trans. If it was a co-dom or dominant trait then you could breed a visual trans to a normal and get all trans or at least one and I have yet to see that happen so imo its not a co-dom at all but is a resessive or simple recessive . Oh and leucistic is another form of albino and is just like snow all one in the same just a little different look and mutation and all 3 are recessive traits..... There is no such co-dom in the genetic table that can be heterozygous there are only visuals or normals with no het for a co-dom in the offspring ..... To get a clutch at all with visuals and Heterozygous it has to be recessive or simple recessive. So with you saying there are hets that is recessive and not a co-dom at all.

Kara is right concerning translucents and any ads you've seen for 'het for translucent' are from people who don't know the difference or are trying to snag a higher price for a simple calyptratus. Chris explains it well here: https://www.chameleonforums.com/hypermelanistic-yemen-chameleons-veiled-35227/#post325549

 

[Texas Ranger]

Kara is right concerning translucents and any ads you've seen for 'het for translucent' are from people who don't know the difference or are trying to snag a higher price for a simple calyptratus. Chris explains it well here: https://www.chameleonforums.com/hypermelanistic-yemen-chameleons-veiled-35227/#post325549

That is right co-dom in it own way but still a recessive trait and not a full co-dom trait because both animals have to have the gene to make the outcome if one animal in the pairing dose not have the gene the outcome is no visual Heterozygous. Meaning it is a simple ressesive trait.

 

[Trace]

I forgot all the various dom, co-dom and whatnot traits and terminology in snake breeding long ago so my wording may not be correct. However if you breed a Translucent Veiled to a Regular Veiled you get a low end Translucent Veiled. The translucent part may not be very big (eg. one toe) but it is there. If people are buying 'het for trans' then they are getting hosed.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Here is a link that tells and shows everyone what is the differences in the 2. It can get way more complicated like double ressesive and double co-Dom (super) but I think we should keep it a little less mind confusing right now...
http://www.arbreptiles.com/genetics101.shtml

 

[mcleodschams]

I forgot all the various dom, co-dom and whatnot traits and terminology in snake breeding long ago so my wording may not be correct. However if you breed a Translucent Veiled to a Regular Veiled you get a low end Translucent Veiled. The translucent part may not be very big (eg. one toe) but it is there. If people are buying 'het for trans' then they are getting hosed.

Yes this absolutely correct.

 

[Texas Ranger]

I forgot all the various dom, co-dom and whatnot traits and terminology in snake breeding long ago so my wording may not be correct. However if you breed a Translucent Veiled to a Regular Veiled you get a low end Translucent Veiled. The translucent part may not be very big (eg. one toe) but it is there. If people are buying 'het for trans' then they are getting hosed.

Ok so if what you say is true that if you breed to a normal you get a visual of some grade then it is a co-dom but can not be het for it. But we are getting way off subject now lol. It is still plain and simple a mutation in a chameleon witch was my point.

 

[ataraxia]

Correct me if im wrong.

Translucent can throw non visuals that will be considered "HET" for trans. Breed two hets to display the disorder. Approximate numbers (when i breed het to het in bearded dragons): A third of the clutch should be visual for the disorder and 2/3rds should be non visual het 66%.

Hypermelanistic (black) Chris is saying cannot throw "HET" offspring. Recessive genes need two parents of the disorder to throw visuals but i always thought if a recessive is bred to a normal. They will only produce (of the disorder) non visual 100% HET animals.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Correct me if im wrong.

Translucent can throw non visuals that will be considered "HET" for trans. Breed two hets to display the disorder. Approximate numbers (when i breed het to het in bearded dragons): A third of the clutch should be visual for the disorder and 2/3rds should be non visual het 66%.

Hypermelanistic (black) Chris is saying cannot throw "HET" offspring. Recessive genes need two parents to throw visuals but i always thought if a recessive is bred to a normal. They will only produce (of the disorder) non visual 100% HET animals.

That's what I was saying.....lol but trace was saying if you breed a trans to a normal you get trans but I have never seen this I have only seen trans to trans make them or trans to a normal making normal babies which would lead me to say recessive.

 

[ataraxia]

If what they are calling a translucent veiled is bred to a normal and they only produce normal looking veileds. It is recessive but those animals should be 100% het for the disorder and have to be bred to another het carrying that disorder for it to be displayed in "some" of the offspring.

 

[Cainschams]

That's what I was saying.....lol but trace was saying if you breed a trans to a normal you get trans but I have never seen this I have only seen trans to trans make them or trans to a normal making normal babies which would lead me to say recessive.

Its been proven all over the place and lots of threads on it when the trans became a big thing. There is a certain percentage of if the animal shows the trait and how much. I forget as its been quite a few years since it was discussed all over the forums. You can get low end trans from breeding a high end to a normal. Its been done countless times.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Its been proven all over the place and lots of threads on it when the trans became a big thing. There is a certain percentage of if the animal shows the trait and how much. I forget as its been quite a few years since it was discussed all over the forums. You can get low end trans from breeding a high end to a normal. Its been done countless times.

Like I said befor if this is true then yes it is a co-dom trait I just haven't seen it for my self . But that is not the whole reasoning behind me bringing up genetics we are getting way off track my point was about 2 pages back that there are mutations in chameleons.

 

[Texas Ranger]

That is right.... Every creature on earth has hidden genes that will not show unless expressed under the right conditions. I am sure everyone has seen albino in almost everything reptiles and mammals . That is a simple recessive trait that shows up in the wild and captive . Also a whole list of other mutations recessive,simple recessive,domanint and co dominant all in mammals and reptiles and other creatures on earth. These traits are all seen more often were the population ar isolated or separated from others (islands or were natural or man made borders have been made. So saying a island like nosy faly has to have just one commen look and color Patten is just ridiculous seeing how they pritty much have every natural and man made things comming in to play to allow for mutations of any kind.

Here is were the thread needs to be we got way off subject. My point in the post was to make it clear mutations in chams is possible. Not to argue over if trans chams are co-dom or recessive. And it looks like everyone agrees yes there can be genetic mutations in chams.

 

[clarkrw3]

Here is were the thread needs to be we got way off subject. My point in the post was to make it clear mutations in chams is possible. Not to argue over if trans chams are co-dom or recessive. And it looks like everyone agrees yes there can be genetic mutations in chams.

I honestly don't think anyone is arguing that there can't be genetic mutations. Everything that has DNA plant or animal can have mutations! The question is can a Cham have a genetic mutation that makes it look like it was crossed with something else..

We need to all stop looking for Zebras. You can NOT compare a Nosy locale with a mainland locale in regards to genetic diversity. Due to the small size of the island and small amount of vegetation you would expect very small genetic diversity on Nosy Faly. Being that it is SO close to nosy be and the mainland could be why you see more diversity compared to Nosy Mitsio which is a larger island. Nosy Mitsio while larger is much farther from another possible source of genetics thus genetically more isolated.

In science you tend to stick with the simplest hypothesis until proven false...and the hypotheses I am hearing are far from simple. Also the only time you see these crazy colored chams is on CB with WC dame and CH. the only explanation I get is...."well the importers don't import the funny looking ones". I'm sorry but I personally can not except that hypothesis.

 

[Texas Ranger]

I honestly don't think anyone is arguing that there can't be genetic mutations. Everything that has DNA plant or animal can have mutations! The question is can a Cham have a genetic mutation that makes it look like it was crossed with something else..

We need to all stop looking for Zebras. You can NOT compare a Nosy locale with a mainland locale in regards to genetic diversity. Due to the small size of the island and small amount of vegetation you would expect very small genetic diversity on Nosy Faly. Being that it is SO close to nosy be and the mainland could be why you see more diversity compared to Nosy Mitsio which is a larger island. Nosy Mitsio while larger is much farther from another possible source of genetics thus genetically more isolated.

In science you tend to stick with the simplest hypothesis until proven false...and the hypotheses I am hearing are far from simple. Also the only time you see these crazy colored chams is on CB with WC dame and CH. the only explanation I get is...."well the importers don't import the funny looking ones". I'm sorry but I personally can not except that hypothesis.

That is all plain and simple in my book. Basic studies say if you isolate anything mutations can,may and sometimes happen the island has everything natural and man done thing to allow for such a thing to be happening. Also I got you in connection with a on the ground exporter that was the first to export and he has said there are crazy colors on that island cross or mutations or natural that do not meet the higher end chams everyone wants. He is also the one who refuses odd colored ones but has told me they have been there sence he first step foot on the island . And then I posted a pic from another regular herper that has nothing to do with chams or cham breeding pic of a odd wc faly on the island. I don't see were any of my info is not proven, backed up by a pic or heard from people on the ground and as simple as it gets . Also the first to breed falys screameleons I have talked to about falys and they are saying the same thing as the exporter they have been there the whole time and they have delt with it in several of there clutches were a faly or any other panther dosnt meet the norm. But is still a pure breed. And not all the babies turn out as the classic red white and blue or green or a perfect example of the locale.

 

[mcleodschams]

Like I said before the classic faly will always be most desired. Who isAre gonna be the one to breed a yellow faly ect. And put them out as pure faly? I'm not. As a pet sure a yellow faly is beautiful in a collection. But the reality of it is we are all gonna have to breed the desired faly look that is known as pure until someone comes back from the island with more then one pic of one faly out of the ordinary. And or starts a breeding project with these odd faly traits with a proven female and sho us that they produce pure falys. That would be an Awsome project something like that I would love to see. The problem is getting a couple odd males from the island to breed with a cb female .

 

[mcleodschams]

Maybe there is another unique trait on the island like the high white is high white not a mutation kinda? Maybe we will see more strange looking faly coming from proven lines one day that should be the case if it is happening there why not here right!