OHHHH BOY - look what time of year it is again

[little leaf]

CICADA SEASON !!
I was sitting in the house, and sure enough, I can hear them starting up , in the morning, this will be breakfast for Max

 

[dacrazycanadian]

I love the sound they make.

 

[little leaf]

I love the sound they make.

yes, that CRUNCH CRUNCH
I like it, but it gets so loud here , you have to close up the house if you want to watch TV

 

[croastbeast]

A word of caution- wild insects can easily harbor pathogens and parasites. Cicada nymphs are documented to carry a nematode in addition to hosting cordyeps like fungal parasites. Use caution in feeding.

 

[little leaf]

A word of caution- wild insects can easily harbor pathogens and parasites. Cicada nymphs are documented to carry a nematode in addition to hosting cordyeps like fungal parasites. Use caution in feeding.

I agree , you need to be careful, and have your chams tested off and on, but mine live outside, they get wild stuff anyway, but these are a treat , the season does not last long

 

[croastbeast]

Tested? For what? I don't follow.

 

[shmeenakoz]

Tested? For what? I don't follow.

Parasites. An already healthy chams health won't be compromised by a feeders parasites. It is good to keep up with fecal checks every 6 months if you do feed wild caught so that if by chance a cham does get sick at any time the parasite won't cause more harm.

 

[little leaf]

Parasites. An already healthy chams health won't be compromised by a feeders parasites. It is good to keep up with fecal checks every 6 months if you do feed wild caught so that if by chance a cham does get sick at any time the parasite won't cause more harm.

yep
some never feed wild caught bugs, some do - I do , and I have seen post about ppl who never feed wild caught bugs, and still have fecal test that come up showing parasites - and as shmeenakoz said, a healthy cham will not be bothered as long as you keep an eye on things, but pesticides would be my bigger worry - we live in the middle of a woods, in the middle of no place - lol so I am not to worried about that - but I NEVER bring home "stray " bugs to feed ~

 

[croastbeast]

Parasites. An already healthy chams health won't be compromised by a feeders parasites. It is good to keep up with fecal checks every 6 months if you do feed wild caught so that if by chance a cham does get sick at any time the parasite won't cause more harm.

We will have to agree to disagree. Nematode a and cordyceps related fungal infections are not mild. And aren't necessarily screened for at parasite checks like ascarids, coccidia, and other common internal parasites. Furthermore, wild insects can contain levels of protozoan parasites, toxic metals, paracides, amongst other uncontrollable, and untestable contents.

 

[croastbeast]

yep

some never feed wild caught bugs, some do - I do , and I have seen post about ppl who never feed wild caught bugs, and still have fecal test that come up showing parasites - and as shmeenakoz said, a healthy cham will not be bothered as long as you keep an eye on things, but pesticides would be my bigger worry - we live in the middle of a woods, in the middle of no place - lol so I am not to worried about that - but I NEVER bring home "stray " bugs to feed ~

As I stated above, well agree to disagree. There is nothing that can be controlled with them in my opinion.

 

[little leaf]

As I stated above, well agree to disagree. There is nothing that can be controlled with them in my opinion.

I agree, lets disagree - I always have, always will feed wild caught, I have never had one die or get sick from wild bugs- I feel they are more of a benefit than a risk I dont think you can control much in "farm " raised bugs either, it only takes ONE to infest a whole building - look at the big cricket virus , its still killing crickets -

 

[junglefries]

I feed mine wild caught moths, praying mantis, butterflies, and bumble bees every time I can catch one. Chameleons are designed to live with parasites. There is a symbiotic balance (is that that the correct term? If not, you'll know what I am trying to say) between the two. Only when you have a weak or sick chameleon does it play a role. That is most parasites, not all.

 

[croastbeast]

I agree, lets disagree - I always have, always will feed wild caught, I have never had one die or get sick from wild bugs- I feel they are more of a benefit than a risk I dont think you can control much in "farm " raised bugs either, it only takes ONE to infest a whole building - look at the big cricket virus , its still killing crickets -

I agree. Im not saying bug farms are sterile. Im saying theyre more controlled than wild insects, and anything a wild insect may encounter (pesticide, etc). By benefit- do you just mean diversity in feed, or something else?

I feed mine wild caught moths, praying mantis, butterflies, and bumble bees every time I can catch one. Chameleons are designed to live with parasites. There is a symbiotic balance (is that that the correct term? If not, you'll know what I am trying to say) between the two. Only when you have a weak or sick chameleon does it play a role. That is most parasites, not all.

I know what youre saying, but feel its a skewed view. I happen to be a biologist, and do understand there is natural flora and fauna which is present, and even necessary. However, thats not what were talking about. NO parasites is necessary and zero is always better than some. How is an ascarid worm, or coccidiosis, or a exposure to pesticide AT ALL beneficial? Comparing chameleons in a natural state to our captive ones is such a biased view in these ways. Do we let our chameleons tough it out when they get respiratory infections? No, we get them veterinary medical care. Do we allow our chameleons to be subject to predation? No we protect them. True, chameleons eat wild insects and have parasites in the wild, but 1) how many die in the wild from these things? 2) How are the relative life spans compared? These issue are quickly forgotten in the "they eat it in the wild" argument.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[little leaf]

I agree. Im not saying bug farms are sterile. Im saying theyre more controlled than wild insects, and anything a wild insect may encounter (pesticide, etc). By benefit- do you just mean diversity in feed, or something else?

I mean in a few ways, in diversity, yes, and also , I think they just enjoy the hunt mine stay outside mostly all summer , some cages are plastic wire, so bugs, no matter how hard I dont want them to,, do get in - I built a huge cage this spring that is all screen, I did not want to worry about lighting bugs when they were out, otherwise, they all get pulled back inside until those are gone - I have only had 2 issues with wild bug, and both times, the cham was inside the house- one was a spider who got in a cage somehow, and bit the cham , the other, a lightning bug got in the house, a cham ate it, and died - I do agree, there are some NASTY parasites out there- did you happen to catch the one of the mantis with a " hair worm" OMG that about made me never want to feed a w/c bug again - but even in the house- they live in a big room, and it never fails, when a bug gets in the house- a bee, fly, moth - it ALWAYS gets in that room and gets eaten - a yellow jacket got in a few weeks ago- before I could even get in there, they ate it - I thought for sure I was going to be off to the vet for a sting, but they loved it - I will not feed bees/wasp , but I know for a fact, they get them - and I feed my feeders "wild food " - mulberry leaves, dandelion leaves, hay, berries, ect - I do wash it - but they get that , so being a biologist , ( congrats, thats cool !! ) how do the wild bugs get their parasites ? once I took in a dubia to have it tested- but nothing was found , either it had nothing, or it was such a mess on the slide ~ I did this because in winter I had one show up w/ a dirty test after a clean one in the summer- and wondered how it got them - it was a very light load, and Oct/ is the next testing mo/ for the chams - ( when they come inside for the yr ) I dont feed ONLY wild caught, just a few treats here and there , and what ever they get on their own - but the cicada, Max is old, and they are his FAV/ - he has eaten them every yr of his life, the person I got him from fed them too - and I feel it good to get them every so often. I do like/ want incite on info, and you can never get enough info like I said, I do agree, you do need to watch them more closely if you feed wild, but I have heard of 100% fed captive bug chams getting parasites also - I would never do anything to hurt my chams on purpose, but some of the ones who come here will only eat wild at first ( we are part of a 501C3 rescue, and get alot of sick / thin chams ) that is also why I started to raise green banana roaches- no one can resist those - anyway, I do like your info

 

[Psychobunny]

Unless you see your yard littered with dead birds and bats, I wouldnt get to neurotic about wild caught feeders

 

[FlChamMom]

I tried to feed Zeke a cicada once- he ran to the corner of his cage, fired up and did the cham "karate chop" pose. Hornworms bigger than 1/2 inch scare him too though...

 

[croastbeast]

I agree. Im not saying bug farms are sterile. Im saying theyre more controlled than wild insects, and anything a wild insect may encounter (pesticide, etc). By benefit- do you just mean diversity in feed, or something else?

I mean in a few ways, in diversity, yes, and also , I think they just enjoy the hunt mine stay outside mostly all summer , some cages are plastic wire, so bugs, no matter how hard I dont want them to,, do get in - I built a huge cage this spring that is all screen, I did not want to worry about lighting bugs when they were out, otherwise, they all get pulled back inside until those are gone - I have only had 2 issues with wild bug, and both times, the cham was inside the house- one was a spider who got in a cage somehow, and bit the cham , the other, a lightning bug got in the house, a cham ate it, and died - I do agree, there are some NASTY parasites out there- did you happen to catch the one of the mantis with a " hair worm" OMG that about made me never want to feed a w/c bug again - but even in the house- they live in a big room, and it never fails, when a bug gets in the house- a bee, fly, moth - it ALWAYS gets in that room and gets eaten - a yellow jacket got in a few weeks ago- before I could even get in there, they ate it - I thought for sure I was going to be off to the vet for a sting, but they loved it - I will not feed bees/wasp , but I know for a fact, they get them - and I feed my feeders "wild food " - mulberry leaves, dandelion leaves, hay, berries, ect - I do wash it - but they get that , so being a biologist , ( congrats, thats cool !! ) how do the wild bugs get their parasites ? once I took in a dubia to have it tested- but nothing was found , either it had nothing, or it was such a mess on the slide ~ I did this because in winter I had one show up w/ a dirty test after a clean one in the summer- and wondered how it got them - it was a very light load, and Oct/ is the next testing mo/ for the chams - ( when they come inside for the yr ) I dont feed ONLY wild caught, just a few treats here and there , and what ever they get on their own - but the cicada, Max is old, and they are his FAV/ - he has eaten them every yr of his life, the person I got him from fed them too - and I feel it good to get them every so often. I do like/ want incite on info, and you can never get enough info like I said, I do agree, you do need to watch them more closely if you feed wild, but I have heard of 100% fed captive bug chams getting parasites also - I would never do anything to hurt my chams on purpose, but some of the ones who come here will only eat wild at first ( we are part of a 501C3 rescue, and get alot of sick / thin chams ) that is also why I started to raise green banana roaches- no one can resist those - anyway, I do like your info

Please dont take me as being critical with my comments. I only hope to be informative. If your animals are housed ina way that they have natural access to wild insects, then it is what it is.

Heres something to think about in your account- you had two issues, both indoors. However, two fatalities from thise iun the anomolous setting says something. They donty run into bees and fireflies indoors often at all. Yet, outdoors, they do far more frequently. The odds of their risk are greater, you see. Im not saying theyre in mass danger, but there is a risk, that you saw.

AGain, it is true, farmed insects can have parasitic loads too. However, playting the odds, you are FAR more likely to introduce pathogens via the wild route than farmed. Particularly if you buy from a respectable source.

In regards to cicadas, heres a link on some info regarding the cordyceps infections, and some pretty graphic proof.

In case you dont know, infectious cordyceps are fungal infections with essentially completely involve the insect, make is a "zombie", and ultimately kill it. Do I know if they effect chameleons? No. Would I ever in a million yeras risk it? Nope.

Some more cordyceps infesting insects:

Unless you see your yard littered with dead birds and bats, I wouldnt get to neurotic about wild caught feeders

I would urge you to reconsider this sentiment. Most ill and compromised wild animals do not stay close to home. They regaularly and often isolate themsleves and wander about. Furthermore, assuming birds and bats dropping dead in your yard indicates anything about their dietary patterns isnt accurate either. Nor the metabolic mechanisms of toxicity poisoning through accumulation and/or ingestion. Just something to consider.

 

[croastbeast]

Let me add one more point, porfessional wild animal organizations (zoos, aquariums, etc)- they very standardly DO NOT feed wild caught prey items or foodstuff, unless the food has been appropriately treated and/or disinfected. Or, if uncontrollable, they routinely get prophylactic treatment for these issues.

 

[little leaf]

that fungus is found mostly in tropical areas - I live in Ohio - I appreciate your info- but the conditions for this fungus are very VERY slim in Ohio - and a cicada with that condition is un able to crawl up a tree- they are dead by the time they look like that - I have never seen this in person , I have seen it in doc/ films - it is creepy ! " zombie ants " - but anyway, I do appreciate your info - but before I ever even started to feed wild, I ask my vet, a vet on here, and also the retired Zoo vet their thoughts on it - basically was told just keep up on the testing- and you are fine - I also feed snails

 

[FlChamMom]

I will say this- the only time I have ever dealt with a parasite the cham had never had anything but farm raised feeders...