Only eating mealworms - not crickets

[Klyde O'Scope]

Mealworms are not the 'bad feeder' they are made out to be—that has been debunked, and that poster should really be changed. Like other feeders, a lot depends on what they're gut loaded with.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/the-evils-of-mealworms.180182/

Some nuggets from that thread are buried a bit, like that mealworms can be a natural source of D3.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/thoughts-on-another-source-of-d3.185977/

I prefer giant mealworms for a number of reasons, but they're fine as part of a varied diet.

Pet stores feed them because they're cheap (shipping costs more than 500), and I doubt they gut load them as they should.
Mealworms, like superworms can become (as some say) 'addictive', and tough love has worked for me with them with both of my lizards, but I don't like the starvation method with young growing animals (JMO).

Fortunately, there are still a lot of fish in the sea and feeder insects for sale online.
Our goto staple feeder right now is dubia roaches. When my cham gets finicky (as some animals are wont to do...)

I put a few giant mealworms in with his roaches (they also help keep the roaches moving to stimulate the cham's hunting response) and inevitably, he'll zap a roach along with a mealworm, and wind up eating both.

Crickets could be the species. My cham definitely prefers some and will refuse others. Trial & error.

 

[Beman]

Mealworms are not the 'bad feeder' they are made out to be—that has been debunked, and that poster should really be changed. Like other feeders, a lot depends on what they're gut loaded with.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/the-evils-of-mealworms.180182/

Some nuggets from that thread are buried a bit, like that mealworms can be a natural source of D3.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/thoughts-on-another-source-of-d3.185977/

I prefer giant mealworms for a number of reasons, but they're fine as part of a varied diet.

Pet stores feed them because they're cheap (shipping costs more than 500), and I doubt they gut load them as they should.
Mealworms, like superworms can become (as some say) 'addictive', and tough love has worked for me with them with both of my lizards, but I don't like the starvation method with young growing animals (JMO).

Fortunately, there are still a lot of fish in the sea and feeder insects for sale online.
Our goto staple feeder right now is dubia roaches. When my cham gets finicky (as some animals are wont to do...)

View attachment 320006​

I put a few giant mealworms in with his roaches (they also help keep the roaches moving to stimulate the cham's hunting response) and inevitably, he'll zap a roach along with a mealworm, and wind up eating both.

Crickets could be the species. My cham definitely prefers some and will refuse others. Trial & error.

The sheet should not be changed it is correct. They are much higher in their calcium to phosphorus ratio. While they may be ok to add in here and there they should not be a staple feeder. Their nutritional value is in fact sub par when you take into account the aspects like cal to phos ratio.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

The sheet should not be changed it is correct. They are much higher in their calcium to phosphorus ratio. While they may be ok to add in here and there they should not be a staple feeder. Their nutritional value is in fact sub par when you take into account the aspects like cal to phos ratio.

Their calcium to phosphorus ratio is approx. the same as crickets.

 

[Beman]

Their calcium to phosphorus ratio is approx. the same as crickets.
View attachment 320014

Honestly I do not feel like I need to speak to this anymore than I already have. Your googling info to make yourself seem correct. It is getting old. While you are entitled to you're opinion I am too. We have many more appropriate feeders available to us so it is not of any value to feed sub par feeders. And mealworms as a staple are not recommended throughout the hobby. Meaning people with many many many years of experience do not recommend them as a staple feeder.

 

[SueAndHerZoo]

Shipping is always expensive... It is the one thing these companies can't control. We can not have the feeders in the shipping process for too long or they all die.

The BBF spikes can be taken from the pouch they come in and put into a plastic container in the fridge they last about a month or so. Take out the pupated ones as you need them to let them turn into flies in the cage. I do not feed them as maggots. I let them pupate.

Keep in mind if your crickets are too large baby is not going to eat them. 175 in a cricket keeper is a lot. They will start killing each other off.

I totally get it about the cost of shipping live things but all of the crickets I've ordered online in the past have only been a few dollars.... the $20 kinda threw me.

So the larvae will pupate even while kept dormant in a fridge?

I hadn't planned on having that many crickets in the keeper at once: I was running low so asked my husband to pick some up while he was out: he got me 100. The next morning a shipment of crickets arrived (that I had forgotten I ordered) so I went from feast to famine. I need better inventory control.
Sue

 

[SueAndHerZoo]

What does your cricket keeper look like? Is it a standard keeper from Petco/Petsmart?

It's the type with the four black tubes that they supposedly crawl into and then I can dust them in there and shake them into the chammy's feeder. Not real impressed.
Sue

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

"staple feeder" Your words—not mine.

Honestly I do not feel like I need to speak to this anymore than I already have. Your unsupported statements (like implying carnivorous plants are harmful when they're not, and 'throughout the hobby' ) carry little/no weight. It is getting old. While you are entitled to you're opinion I am too. We have many appropriate feeders available to us, and mealworms are fine as part of a varied diet. And mealworms are recommended as such throughout the hobby. Meaning people with many many many years of experience recommend them as a part of a varied diet.

...as the cited threads show.

At least I can support my opinions/statements.

 

[Beman]

I totally get it about the cost of shipping live things but all of the crickets I've ordered online in the past have only been a few dollars.... the $20 kinda threw me.

So the larvae will pupate even while kept dormant in a fridge?

I hadn't planned on having that many crickets in the keeper at once: I was running low so asked my husband to pick some up while he was out: he got me 100. The next morning a shipment of crickets arrived (that I had forgotten I ordered) so I went from feast to famine. I need better inventory control.
Sue

You will find you will pay anywhere from 8-20 for shipping. All depends on the companies shipping methods. Depending on the time of year and what you order you may want faster shipping. Things like hornworms and silkworms you want to get to you quickly or they grow quite a bit in transport. Dubia tend to be able to survive anything so they are the one you really do not have to stress a ton with. Crickets will start eating each other once they go through the food in the container so I have always done faster shipping on them.

Yes they will get a brown shell to them. At that point pull them out and toss in your bio active bottom. I put in about 10-12 a week. They hatch out typically a few each day.

 

[SueAndHerZoo]

Thanks for all the advice, feedback and information..... I truly appreciate all the activity and input from ALL of you! I have learned over the years that a hobby is challenging, entails a lot of work, and is supposed to be fun and rewarding so I try to keep that in mind when taking on any new venture. I research myself into a state of insanity and get confused and frustrated by conflicting information so at some point I have to step back, weigh the facts, filter the opinions, use some common sense, and decide what I think works best for me and the living being I'm caring for. I'm sure there is no black and white "perfect" feeding regimen for every animal (there certainly isn't for humans - we all have different intolerances, needs, insufficiencies, etc.) so I'm going to do my best with this little fella, observe his growth, behavior, preferences, signs of any illness or deterioration, and hope I'm doing well by him.

I really appreciate the information that you all provide - it gives me a great foundation to base my decisions on!
Sue

 

[SueAndHerZoo]

You will find you will pay anywhere from 8-20 for shipping. All depends on the companies shipping methods. Depending on the time of year and what you order you may want faster shipping. Things like hornworms and silkworms you want to get to you quickly or they grow quite a bit in transport. Dubia tend to be able to survive anything so they are the one you really do not have to stress a ton with. Crickets will start eating each other once they go through the food in the container so I have always done faster shipping on them.

Yes they will get a brown shell to them. At that point pull them out and toss in your bio active bottom. I put in about 10-12 a week. They hatch out typically a few each day.

Wow.... I really have gone crazy in my old age - I'm actually eager and excited to start hatching out flies! What has my world come to!?!?!?!
Sue

 

[MissSkittles]

"staple feeder" Your words—not mine.

Honestly I do not feel like I need to speak to this anymore than I already have. Your unsupported statements (like implying carnivorous plants are harmful when they're not, and 'throughout the hobby' ) carry little/no weight. It is getting old. While you are entitled to you're opinion I am too. We have many appropriate feeders available to us, and mealworms are fine as part of a varied diet. And mealworms are recommended as such throughout the hobby. Meaning people with many many many years of experience recommend them as a part of a varied diet.

...as the cited threads show.

At least I can support my opinions/statements.

I’ve got to jump in here. I’m trying to find the podcast that Dr Rob Coke (or was it John Courtenay Smith) explains why mealworms aren’t a great feeder so that I may offer a respected professional reference to support this. He stated that the chitin to nutrition level is the problem with mealworms. In a pinch, mealworms are ok but to say that they are fine as a feeder for chameleons is taking on a lot of responsibility and contradictory to our care sheets. I will follow and recommend what those who have years of experience in keeping and researching chameleons over what Google may say. If you wish to feed your cham mealworms, that’s your personal choice. As many of us are trying to teach correct and well proven husbandry, arguing only serves to confuse those who are trying to learn. If you wish to tout the benefits of mealworms or anything else that goes against the standards and ‘norms’, please start a post to discuss.
@SueAndHerZoo I’m sorry to disrupt your thread.

 

[SueAndHerZoo]

I’ve got to jump in here. I’m trying to find the podcast that Dr Rob Coke (or was it John Courtenay Smith) explains why mealworms aren’t a great feeder so that I may offer a respected professional reference to support this. He stated that the chitin to nutrition level is the problem with mealworms. In a pinch, mealworms are ok but to say that they are fine as a feeder for chameleons is taking on a lot of responsibility and contradictory to our care sheets. I will follow and recommend what those who have years of experience in keeping and researching chameleons over what Google may say. If you wish to feed your cham mealworms, that’s your personal choice. As many of us are trying to teach correct and well proven husbandry, arguing only serves to confuse those who are trying to learn. If you wish to tout the benefits of mealworms or anything else that goes against the standards and ‘norms’, please start a post to discuss.
@SueAndHerZoo I’m sorry to disrupt your thread.

No apology necessary - it's all useful information and a healthy debate and sharing differing thoughts, opinions and findings is always a good thing. My original question was answered.... we then took it to a new level of discussion.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I’ve got to jump in here. I’m trying to find the podcast that Dr Rob Coke (or was it John Courtenay Smith) explains why mealworms aren’t a great feeder so that I may offer a respected professional reference to support this. He stated that the chitin to nutrition level is the problem with mealworms.

I don't know about that one. I searched Chameleon Academy, and claims of chiten problems were mentioned, but no admonitions not to feed them.

Impaction is where there is a blockage of the intestines and poop cannot get out. The poop is stuck in the body causing pain and finally sepsis which is fatal. There are a number of things that impaction is blamed on including eating mealworms with high chiton in their exoskeleton to ingesting substrate. As there are chameleons that love mealworms and chameleons that pass inorganic material without and issue the story gets more complicated. It is suspected that impaction occurs not because of what was ingested, but that the environmental condition were off. The most likely culprit is the body not being the right temperature so it did not work that well. Other reports include having a parasite load so massive that it actually started impeding flow in the intestines. I would have to research this to verify it was true as amassing enough microscopic organisms to block the intestines would be an amazing situation. Though when we get to parasitic nematodes (worms) there are some worms that can get massive enough that one can block the intestines.
https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-medical-impaction/

I don't find anything there recommending against mealworms for any reasons.
I DO find them mentioned here as part of a varied diet—as I've been saying right along.
https://chameleonacademy.com/ep-30-introduction-to-chameleons/

In a pinch, mealworms are ok but to say that they are fine as a feeder for chameleons is taking on a lot of responsibility and contradictory to our care sheets.

My contention is that the care sheets that say that are based on old or misinformation, since there is no explanation given WHY they are "not recommended".

I will follow and recommend what those who have years of experience in keeping and researching chameleons over what Google may say.

That's exactly what I've been doing. There is google,
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=are+mealworms+good+reptile+feeders?
and there is google (scholar).
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,33&q=are+mealworms+good+reptile+feeders?&btnG=
Contrast to/with:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,33&q=are+mealworms+bad+reptile+feeders?&btnG=
(Or choose your own criteria)

If you wish to feed your cham mealworms, that’s your personal choice.

I don't have a problem with that.

As many of us are trying to teach correct and well proven husbandry, arguing only serves to confuse those who are trying to learn.

My understanding is that discussing alternatives, differences, and conflicting information is one of the things this forum is for. If everything were that cut & dried, there would be one book, one caresheet with no discussion whatsoever, and little need of a forum like this except to repeatedly parrot that one 'indisputable' source. But there is no single authority. Nothing is carved in stone, and things change in this and other hobbies/endeavors all the time.

If you wish to tout the benefits of mealworms or anything else that goes against the standards and ‘norms’, please start a post to discuss.

That was done, and that was the thread I first cited. I cited it here, because the OP has stated at least a couple of times that she likes to know the hows & whys of things which I wholeheartedly agree with.

Also, as I stated above:

Like other feeders, a lot depends on what they're gut loaded with.

 

[SueAndHerZoo]

I totally and wholeheartedly agree with this, and I do wish to always learn the how's and why's of this science.... I've never been very good at just doing as I'm told.
Sue

My understanding is that discussing alternatives, differences, and conflicting information is one of the things this forum is for. If everything were that cut & dried, there would be one book, one care sheet with no discussion whatsoever, and little need of a forum like this except to repeatedly parrot that one 'indisputable' source. But there is no single authority. Nothing is carved in stone, and things change in this and other hobbies/endeavors all the time.

 

[JacksJill]

There is a problem with nutritional analysis and this applies to dog food as well. Not all protein is created equal. In the case of dog food beaks and feet are indigestible connective tissue but still count as protein. Chitin is not an easily digested protein and may be mostly indigestible. There re no studies of chameleon digestion that I know of. I only know what I see in the fecal analysis.
In my humble opinion there are better feeders and I would always use supers over meal worms. Would I feed meal worms if I had nothing else in an emergency, yes, but I will always make an effort to do better. If I was forced to feed meal worms I would do so in moderation. I have seen problems even with supers fed in large amounts and it wasn't pretty.