Oops - Kinyongia Boehmei

[snitz427]

Not starting an argument on your thread @snitz427 don't worry, and Idt there is anything wrong with bee pollen, but this is a good example of how one could be confused. People say no multivitamin for montanes, but bee pollen yes! Bee pollen is a multivitamin and if it is digested by the cham, wouldn't it bring the same problems that a 'multivitamin' would bring when dealing with montanes? Or is the hype about multivitamins causing problems a myth and they should just be used in lower doses(which bee pollen could be a good example of) due to the slower metabolism of most montanes. Not trying to be disrespectful to anyone here. I just have a mild interest in nutrition and sometimes this stuff doesn't add up to me. I use multis with my Parsons during warm weather and very little of anything during cold weather personally.

I hadn't really thought as much about bee pollen, honestly, in terms of dosage. I have planned not to give them anything but calcium for a while as I have no idea what the seller was giving them as far as supplementation. I give the others bee pollen at least once a week, I figure they get it in the wild - or at least some variation of its ingredients. I still have quite a bit of research to do in terms of their supplementation, but as I am sticking to light calcium for now I figure I have a little time.

 

[snitz427]

This might be interesting to you @snitz427
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/kinyongia-boehmei-2018-import.163581/page-3

Thank you! That was very helpful. I have not seen either of the colorations shown in the thread, so perhaps Lucy is just showing her discontent at my presence! She's very small, so it is difficult for me to examine her without getting close or using my phone to zoom. They're very calm considering the circumstances.

 

[kinyonga]

You're welcome!

 

[MissSkittles]

They are both beautiful! Congrats!

 

[jamest0o0]

I hadn't really thought as much about bee pollen, honestly, in terms of dosage. I have planned not to give them anything but calcium for a while as I have no idea what the seller was giving them as far as supplementation. I give the others bee pollen at least once a week, I figure they get it in the wild - or at least some variation of its ingredients. I still have quite a bit of research to do in terms of their supplementation, but as I am sticking to light calcium for now I figure I have a little time.

For sure, I think that is a great approach.

 

[PetNcs]

Thank you. Do you have any info or guidance for female receptive/gravid coloration? She is typically bright green with red head, but on occasion she is a slightly darker green with a few white “spots” on her side. Difficult to tell in certain areas/lighting of the cage.

I believe they are both adult based on the size of their nostril protrusions. Do you believe that is an accurate observation?

rostral protrusions ))
A funny tupo
Nonoffense please, just LOL

I'm glad you're not mad at me!

L

This might be interesting to you @snitz427
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/kinyongia-boehmei-2018-import.163581/page-3

Not starting an argument on your thread @snitz427 don't worry, and Idt there is anything wrong with bee pollen, but this is a good example of how one could be confused. People say no multivitamin for montanes, but bee pollen yes! Bee pollen is a multivitamin and if it is digested by the cham, wouldn't it bring the same problems that a 'multivitamin' would bring when dealing with montanes? Or is the hype about multivitamins causing problems a myth and they should just be used in lower doses(which bee pollen could be a good example of) due to the slower metabolism of most montanes. Not trying to be disrespectful to anyone here. I just have a mild interest in nutrition and sometimes this stuff doesn't add up to me. I use multis with my Parsons during warm weather and very little of anything during cold weather personally.

so, you soek to someone whomhas described this species firmacinece and observed them ling enough in the wild and in captivity
They eat pollinators as main partnof their diet in the wild tooX Inhave done dozens of fecal samples and the fecal samples contained even pollen.
Same, as the pollinatoes do contain them.
I do jot know what is the base of not recommending multivitamins to kontanes, they need full nitrition like any other chameleon. I have kept more than 30 species of montanes and have never had any issue with pollen, on contrary, control samples showed that they are doing much better with pollen than without.

the OP canrelh eithen on specullations or on physical experience of someone who found them as unknown species, described them, kept and reproduced them in captivity for 3 generations

 

[PetNcs]

I hadn't really thought as much about bee pollen, honestly, in terms of dosage. I have planned not to give them anything but calcium for a while as I have no idea what the seller was giving them as far as supplementation. I give the others bee pollen at least once a week, I figure they get it in the wild - or at least some variation of its ingredients. I still have quite a bit of research to do in terms of their supplementation, but as I am sticking to light calcium for now I figure I have a little time.

they key factors for their surviva based on my experience:
Low night drop in the 60s
Low 70s at daytime
Babies till 3months no basking then very carefully limited to few minutes a day
Nighttime fog
Food consisting of small flying insects
Pollen
UV

 

[snitz427]

rostral protrusions ))
A funny tupo
Nonoffense please, just LOL

I thought about it for a few seconds and had no idea what to call them! No offense taken I think its funny too.

I’ve heard montanes are more sensitive to over supplementation, particularly vit a. As these are my first montanes, and WC imports, I’m playing it safe for now to get them acclimated. Bee pollen wasn’t a concern but MV/vitamin a was.

My temps are maybe even a little low for them. I’ve been spot checking parts of the enclosure, and most of it seems to be 68-70. There is a corner with a basking bulb that gets up to 80 at the screen, but no braches near it... so it just raises ambient temps on that side but not really a basking spot. Im rearranging things today to continue to dial it in.

Fogging 2 hours every 3 hours overnight, only. And a misting in the am. Humidity is 60-70% during the day. I am not sure the overnight humidity but I usually see 70% or higher in the morning when its time to mist.

 

[PetNcs]

I thought about it for a few seconds and had no idea what to call them! No offense taken I think its funny too.

I’ve heard montanes are more sensitive to over supplementation, particularly vit a. As these are my first montanes, and WC imports, I’m playing it safe for now to get them acclimated. Bee pollen wasn’t a concern but MV/vitamin a was.

My temps are maybe even a little low for them. I’ve been spot checking parts of the enclosure, and most of it seems to be 68-70. There is a corner with a basking bulb that gets up to 80 at the screen, but no braches near it... so it just raises ambient temps on that side but not really a basking spot. Im rearranging things today to continue to dial it in.

Fogging 2 hours every 3 hours overnight, only. And a misting in the am. Humidity is 60-70% during the day. I am not sure the overnight humidity but I usually see 70% or higher in the morning when its time to mist.

That sounds reasonable
Nighttime temps
Should go as low as possible
Even uNder 60 NP

with pollen and Ca yiu do not need tomcare for kiltivitamin IMHO

 

[jamest0o0]

rostral protrusions ))
A funny tupo
Nonoffense please, just LOL

L




so, you soek to someone whomhas described this species firmacinece and observed them ling enough in the wild and in captivity
They eat pollinators as main partnof their diet in the wild tooX Inhave done dozens of fecal samples and the fecal samples contained even pollen.
Same, as the pollinatoes do contain them.
I do jot know what is the base of not recommending multivitamins to kontanes, they need full nitrition like any other chameleon. I have kept more than 30 species of montanes and have never had any issue with pollen, on contrary, control samples showed that they are doing much better with pollen than without.

the OP canrelh eithen on specullations or on physical experience of someone who found them as unknown species, described them, kept and reproduced them in captivity for 3 generations

Petr, Natalie, my question is this. Bee pollen is a multivitamin. If it is digestible and useable by the chameleon, wouldn't it carry the same risks as using a regular multivitamin? Not saying I wouldn't use it, but some keepers liberally dump it on, maybe that could backfire? On the other hand, maybe it does nothing and that's why we can dust without any problems it seems. I haven't done this longer than you petr, but I've been keeping reptiles for a pretty damn long time myself. Either way, not trying to argue with anyone, just bringing up the question since it concerns montanes and I have wondered about it myself.


Edit: probably better suited for another thread, but us cham people have a tendency to go off the rails, forgive me

 

[snitz427]

Petr, Natalie, my question is this. Bee pollen is a multivitamin. If it is digestible and useable by the chameleon, wouldn't it carry the same risks as using a regular multivitamin? Not saying I wouldn't use it, but some keepers liberally dump it on, maybe that could backfire? On the other hand, maybe it does nothing and that's why we can dust without any problems it seems. I haven't done this longer than you petr, but I've been keeping reptiles for a pretty damn long time myself. Either way, not trying to argue with anyone, just bringing up the question since it concerns montanes and I have wondered about it myself.


Edit: probably better suited for another thread, but us cham people have a tendency to go off the rails, forgive me

My understanding has been that vitamin a and vitamin d are the big risks. I’ll see if I can find something that shows the vitamin and mineral content of bee pollen. The digest-ability is unknown, too. So with bee pollen and a mv, you really dont know how much is truly being absorbed. It could be low amounts in bee pollen, and too high in MV powder. Interesting angle I had not thought about and will def look into.


Petr - I will need to monitor night temps but im certain they drop to at least 60. I just checked their mid-cage temps and it was 66 with all lights on. Maybe a little too chilly so I plugged in a space heater a few feet away and set it to 73. I’ll check throughout the day and adjust as needed to get mid cage to 70.

 

[PetNcs]

My understanding has been that vitamin a and vitamin d are the big risks. I’ll see if I can find something that shows the vitamin and mineral content of bee pollen. The digest-ability is unknown, too. So with bee pollen and a mv, you really dont know how much is truly being absorbed. It could be low amounts in bee pollen, and too high in MV powder. Interesting angle I had not thought about and will def look into.


Petr - I will need to monitor night temps but im certain they drop to at least 60. I just checked their mid-cage temps and it was 66 with all lights on. Maybe a little too chilly so I plugged in a space heater a few feet away and set it to 73. I’ll check throughout the day and adjust as needed to get mid cage to 70.

i would have no concern in the case of pollen
It is definitely digested only partly and more important: this is what they naturally ingest!
I have ao far had only evideltly positive experience with it and no single negative case.
We do not know HOW exactly it wirks, true, but THAT it works positively, we are absokute sure nowadays
We will never have full understanding even in what positive extent is for us water use
Fum but this is not why we refuse to drink it until we know ALL, right? LOL

if rhe temps are low, I would nit set the room hogjer, instead, I would allow more basking ipportunities and, J would NOT allow them to bask all day. The area is clouded all tear around and there is no singke fully sunny day. So, intermittent basking on of is the way I would do...

 

[PetNcs]

i would have no concern in the case of pollen
It is definitely digested only partly and more important: this is what they naturally ingest!
I have ao far had only evideltly positive experience with it and no single negative case.
We do not know HOW exactly it wirks, true, but THAT it works positively, we are absokute sure nowadays
We will never have full understanding even in what positive extent is for us water use
Fum but this is not why we refuse to drink it until we know ALL, right? LOL

if rhe temps are low, I would nit set the room hogjer, instead, I would allow more basking ipportunities and, J would NOT allow them to bask all day. The area is clouded all tear around and there is no singke fully sunny day. So, intermittent basking on of is the way I would do...

i have done very rigirous experiments with other montanes: T. hoehnelii
At identical conditions, we had three control groupsnof babies from same clutch:

1. “Normal” husbandry with right temps and night fog and feeding standard way with calcium, little MVT, and UV
2. 1. With pollen
3. 1. With simullated wind (ventillator intermittently)
4. 2 and 3 combined

best results: 4
Second: 2
Third: 3
Last: 1.

More than halfnof the babies in group 1 died within first theee months, due to RI, they developped gular oedema, mouthrot

 

[kinyonga]

Bee pollen is quite a "significant source of vitamin both fat-soluble 0,1%, such as provitamin A and vitamins E and D, and water-soluble 0,6%, such as B1, B2, B6, and C, and acids: pantothenic, nicotinic and folic, biotin, rutin, and inositol. Their total amount is equal to 0,7% in the whole product"....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4377380/

 

[snitz427]

I’m happy to say that Lucy and Desi have been doing well. It’s been two weeks now and they’re very active, eating, and look well overall.

They are so small, and their food items so small, that I don’t think I will be able to successfully treat them for parasites. They are not interested in soft body worms yet, and the other food items are so tiny that putting any form of liquid on them would be enough to drowned them. So I think I’m just going to let them be. I’m still trying to do the liquid parasite treatment but I’m not going to slave away with cage cleanings and changings.

I’ve decided to set them up in a fully bioactive enclosure and just let them live out the rest of their days (hopefully years) as comfortably as possible. I’ll give them another few weeks to settle in and then I may try to introduce Desi to Lucy. I do not believe she is gravid yet. I think that I am going to sprinkle sand over top of the soil so that I can see where she digs if and when she does. It is hard to put into words how tiny she is, but the hole she would dig would likely be no wider than my pinky finger!

Unfortunately with the COVID-19 pandemic, all expos have been canceled. The breeder that I got these two from lives four hours away. We were planning to meet up this weekend at an expo in Philly. He has decided to sell his entire collection to another breeder, including his other Boehme’s. It seems I’ve missed my chance. We will see how these to do and go from there.

 

[snitz427]

Lucie and Desi are doing well.

Lucy’s seemed a little stressed lately, Im wondering if she is developing eggs. Her color has darkened a little with white spots. Not sure.

I noticed a little white spot on Lucy’s lips... she is so tiny it is VERY hard to see, but photos show it well. I went back and looked at other photos and it seems she may have had a scab when I got her that gas fallen off. Going to try to dab makuna honey on it, but she’s very tiny and very shy. Maybe I’ll wait til she falls asleep.

These guys are pretty active and curious. I’m going to plant their cages soon - right now its pretty sparse, as i was going to treat them. I’ve decided thats too hard and too stressful, so other than a total crapshoot at pancur dosing on crickets, Im not treating them. They've been through enough.

Here they are today (3 weeks).



Lucy said nope.

Still nope.

My pet tree frog...

 

[kinyonga]

Glad to see they're doing well!
Good that you bought the pair, eh?

 

[snitz427]

Glad to see they're doing well!
Good that you bought the pair, eh?

Yes ma’am, they’ve been fun to observe. Regret missing out on the other female.

 

[kinyonga]

Ma'am? Now I feel very old!

You said..."Regret missing out on the other female"...
When it comes to chameleons besides veileds and panthers, you need to buy a pair or two..snatch them up...when you see them if you want to breed them...because it happens almost every time that you won't see them again for a while!

 

[Persnickety Parson's]

This is Lucy and Desi. My 7th and 8th “it was an accident, babe.” Saw them at a reptile show and couldn’t walk away. Both are dwarf fischer’s chameleons and are imports. They looked in pretty good shape (although understandably stressed now).

Wish me luck. I’m very nervous!

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Sometimes you have to simply make a leap at something. And since you have access to help there's no real reason to apologize.