Panther Chameleon Lip infection?

[Beman]

Exoterra multivitamin and a calcium+d3 powder. The multivitamin a few times per week and the calcium+d3 could be used at nearly every feeding according to the vet.

Is this what you have always used? If so this may be part of the issue. Exoterra does not put vitamin A in their multivitamin. They use beta carotene instead which has not been proven to be able to convert in their system to usable Vitamin A. Now it does have D3. With what your Vet is recommending with so much D3 intake she will be overdosed on D3 which can cause many other issues. When you overdose them on D3 they can start pulling calcium from their bones instead to try to balance it out and it can compromise organ function. Not to mention with a female that needs plain calcium without D3 for egg production this could cause some very serious issues along with full decline in health.

I would use a plain calcium without D3 for all feedings and then replace your exoterra supplements and buy Repashy Calcium Plus LoD version. This is a multivitamin with vitamin A and D3 this would only be given 2 times a month say the 1st and the 15th.

 

[Menno & Karoline]

Is this what you have always used? If so this may be part of the issue. Exoterra does not put vitamin A in their multivitamin. They use beta carotene instead which has not been proven to be able to convert in their system to usable Vitamin A. Now it does have D3. With what your Vet is recommending with so much D3 intake she will be overdosed on D3 which can cause many other issues. When you overdose them on D3 they can start pulling calcium from their bones instead to try to balance it out and it can compromise organ function. Not to mention with a female that needs plain calcium without D3 for egg production this could cause some very serious issues along with full decline in health.

I would use a plain calcium without D3 for all feedings and then replace your exoterra supplements and buy Repashy Calcium Plus LoD version. This is a multivitamin with vitamin A and D3 this would only be given 2 times a month say the 1st and the 15th.

My wife and I discussed your comment. Considering one option comes from our veterinarian and the other comes from an (and im assuming here) at least somewhat experienced chameleon keeper.
We decided to heed your advise as we hope that advise from experience is more accurate than what our vet may know about chameleons specifically. They doesn't only treat chameleons, nor reptiles, they actually treat all exotic animals including reptiles, amfibians, birds and others. Also we looked at other places on this and other forums and watched a few non-outdated videos about the subject. We ordered the rehapsy calcium plus LoD and some calcium without d3 specifically.

The vet will be calling us next week somewhere for an update on the treatment with the medicines. At that time we will also update this threat with the situation of our chameleon.

 

[Beman]

My wife and I discussed your comment. Considering one option comes from our veterinarian and the other comes from an (and im assuming here) at least somewhat experienced chameleon keeper.
We decided to heed your advise as we hope that advise from experience is more accurate than what our vet may know about chameleons specifically. They doesn't only treat chameleons, nor reptiles, they actually treat all exotic animals including reptiles, amfibians, birds and others. Also we looked at other places on this and other forums and watched a few non-outdated videos about the subject. We ordered the rehapsy calcium plus LoD and some calcium without d3 specifically.

The vet will be calling us next week somewhere for an update on the treatment with the medicines. At that time we will also update this threat with the situation of our chameleon.

Hey guys... I know it is hard when you have a vet saying one thing and a person you do not know saying another. I can tell you what I am saying is from over 4 years of being in this hobby and being in this forum. Unfortunately unless a vet is a vet that actually has chameleon hands on experience they are not going to know all the husbandry details. I have seen so many times in the forum where people were given inaccurate info like you were and their chams died. I just do not want to see that happen for yall.

This blog is done by one of our very experienced keepers and speaks directly to D3 toxicity which if you followed your vets advice would be what happened. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/d3-poisoning.2401/

This is the start of one by her that speaks to vitamin A as well. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/the-balance-between-vitamins-d3-and-a.2408/

Both of these are the ones we watch out for because they store in the bodies tissues and organs for so long. So once you over do it the cham can really struggle to come back from it.

I promise I would not recommend anything against a vet's instructions unless I knew for a fact it would be harmful.

 

[Menno & Karoline]

Hey guys... I know it is hard when you have a vet saying one thing and a person you do not know saying another. I can tell you what I am saying is from over 4 years of being in this hobby and being in this forum. Unfortunately unless a vet is a vet that actually has chameleon hands on experience they are not going to know all the husbandry details. I have seen so many times in the forum where people were given inaccurate info like you were and their chams died. I just do not want to see that happen for yall.

This blog is done by one of our very experienced keepers and speaks directly to D3 toxicity which if you followed your vets advice would be what happened. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/d3-poisoning.2401/

This is the start of one by her that speaks to vitamin A as well. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/the-balance-between-vitamins-d3-and-a.2408/

Both of these are the ones we watch out for because they store in the bodies tissues and organs for so long. So once you over do it the cham can really struggle to come back from it.

I promise I would not recommend anything against a vet's instructions unless I knew for a fact it would be harmful.

I appreciatie your help immensely, I read the blogs and am now somewhat fearful of the state of my chameleon. We have had her since august and have given her nearly every feeding with the calcium + d3 supplement. Im not yet sure if this will have lasting effects although I hope not.
As I said, I have ordered the D3-less calcium and the reccommended multivitamin. We will start to apply this new feeding schedule tomorrow already. I will keep this threat updated as to her status.

 

[Beman]

I appreciatie your help immensely, I read the blogs and am now somewhat fearful of the state of my chameleon. We have had her since august and have given her nearly every feeding with the calcium + d3 supplement. Im not yet sure if this will have lasting effects although I hope not.
As I said, I have ordered the D3-less calcium and the reccommended multivitamin. We will start to apply this new feeding schedule tomorrow already. I will keep this threat updated as to her status.

Since they did the vitamin shot. I would wait 4 weeks before giving her the first dose of the repashy multivitamin. She needs the D3 to start clearing from the body. So just use the calcium without D3 you ordered. I would not be surprised at all if the eyes are due to the D3 overdose. We see them like this when they have had way too much fat soluble vitamins. Try to keep a dripper on her so she stays hydrated as well. It will not help clear the D3 but it will help her body overall. Remember with all supplements you are lightly dusting your feeders. They should not look like powdered donuts.

Have you ever done a full husbandry review with us? If not I can post the form for you. I think this would be really beneficial just so we can look at all aspects and catch anything that is off.

 

[Menno & Karoline]

Since they did the vitamin shot. I would wait 4 weeks before giving her the first dose of the repashy multivitamin. She needs the D3 to start clearing from the body. So just use the calcium without D3 you ordered. I would not be surprised at all if the eyes are due to the D3 overdose. We see them like this when they have had way too much fat soluble vitamins. Try to keep a dripper on her so she stays hydrated as well. It will not help clear the D3 but it will help her body overall. Remember with all supplements you are lightly dusting your feeders. They should not look like powdered donuts.

Have you ever done a full husbandry review with us? If not I can post the form for you. I think this would be really beneficial just so we can look at all aspects and catch anything that is off.

We have not yet done one of those reviews. It'd may be nice to have one done.

Another update as to the chameleons condition. Today was the second treatment of the antibiotic eyedrops. During this check we noticed some red substance coming down and covering the iris and pupil originating from the swollen area. Additionally, the swollen area appeared more bulbous than before. The red substance retracted back away from the eye in mere seconds after appearing but it prompted me to update my vet about this, who will hopefully respond sometime tomorrow.

We gave her the drops and she took them pretty well. I have also kept an eye on her behaviour, setting up a timelapse to see how she acts during the day. I noticed that she is equally active as normal, crawling around between cooler and warmer areas of the cage, moving to droplet-covered leaves when she wants to drink and chasing down a cricket if she's hungry.
Her eyes also still dart around as much as before and they remain open during the day. (I read that closing them or using them less could be a sign to worry about, but this doesnt seem to be happening with ours chameleon.)

Additionally I wanted to share some pictures we took while giving the medicine today giving a more clear angle on the condition of her eyes than our previous images did. This is merely to keep this threat updated until this is all resolved and so that people suffering the same problem can see the progression that happened in our case.

 

[Beman]

Well if you would like to do the husbandry reveiw this is the form. You will just copy and paste it into your reply then fill it out. Try to be as detailed as possible. Add a pic of the entire cage lights down to the bottom as well.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
• Location - Where are you geographically located?

 

[Menno & Karoline]

I must apologize for the long period of silence. But sadly I have to announce that this story does not have a happy ending.

We went through a long battle with her eye infection as noted in my last post. We tried many different kinds of antibiotics in liquid form that we had to feed her as well as in the form of eyedrops. We have had a period where we washed out her eyes in the hope that if there is something behind her eyelids that we can wash it out.

But after many vet visits and many different types of medicine the vet was also at the end of what she knew she could do. She had contacted her mentor who had taught her everything about reptiles and who is a well recigonized reptile expert here in the netherlands. She suggested to attempt surgery if her condition met a few qualifications for that. We were supposed to go in for a checkup soon until then we were told to keep flushing her eyes in the hope that could possibly clear things up. But before we could get her to that vet visit she became really tired. She no longer had the strength to keep herself from laying flat on her stomach and she could barely crawl around like that. She had spent much of her final day on the floor of the cage as she didn't have the strength to keep climbing. So we put her next to a comfortable heatmat on some pillows where she went to sleep last night and when we went to check up on her before going to bed we noticed that she had passed away. We drove to the animal hospital that we had been going to for a while and they confirmed that she had passed. We said our goodbyes and that was the end of it.

I am sorry that it all ends on such a sad note and that I hadn't kept up this thread in the way I probably should have but our battle against this infection lasted for so long without any changes that I just couldn't keep it up. We got her as quite an impulse purchase but even so she lived with us for a long while before anything bad began to happen. I still believe chameleons are amazing pets but it just shows that not only do you want to do your reasearch beforehand to be able to take care of them in the best way possible, but you also to make sure you know how fragile these creatures actually are. The moment things went the wrong way, no matter how much we tried to help, eventually we didn't manage to save her.

So hereby I close this thread on a sad note, but I still think chameleons can be great pets. As long as you know what you are getting yourself into before you get one and emotionally bind yourself to them.

 

[MissSkittles]

I’m sorry that your girl has passed.

 

[Sonny13]

I’m really sorry you went through this and your girl passed away. Keep her close in your heart. But, also don’t let this encourage you for this beautiful hobby. And yes we’ll get emotional attached with these little pristine creatures. Hopefully after your grief, you review everything and give one another chance for a good life, because I think they’ll get it at your home

 

[kinyonga]

So sorry for your loss. It’s not easy losing them. Keep her in your heart.