Panther Cross breeding
- Thread starter javsto
- Start date
Cross breeding is a controversial topic. They are not designer chams, they are crosses The crosses can have amazing patterns, or really drab patterns and they do not sell for as much or as well. Those are the facts. My personal opinion is crossing should be avoided in general because we have limited captive populations available and don't know how long wc new blood will be available so crossbreeding is diluting the gene pool we have. Wouldn't be as much of a problem if we had better documentation of lineage or origin so people knew that their totally ambiguous female was a cross before breeding her to their pure bloodlines. But I don't think it's evil to crossbreed. And since they are all the same species, just different breeds people argue it probably happens in nature anyway. But then again people like their purebred dogs (before you judge, my dogs are shelter mutts) so how many people are looking for that brown scruffy dog that results from strays breeding? There is no black or white right or wrong. You asked for opinions. 
This topic had popped up many, many times if you want to search for it.
Sidenote: "designer breed" is a totally ridiculous name for any cross breed - especially dogs! They are mutts and attaching a more desirable name is just to be able to charge more money. Personal petpeeve...
This topic had popped up many, many times if you want to search for it.Sidenote: "designer breed" is a totally ridiculous name for any cross breed - especially dogs! They are mutts and attaching a more desirable name is just to be able to charge more money. Personal petpeeve...
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javsto
New Member
what I meant to say was that since both ambi and sambava are the same species, panther, would they both mate since they are from different regions or would the offspring they produce be somewhat supseptibe to deformations or illnesses that are common to thier individual locales but higher in possibliity since they are cross bred or hybrid? Im asking cause the show is this sunday and just want to make sure that there would not be any severe problems if i get 1 panther male with 1 panter female each from a different region or locale(seperate cages of course until mating) and I dont want mutant babies later in life.
Texas Panther Man
New Member
A pardalis is a pardalis. Regardless what area of madasgascar it comes from. With that said. Say no-to-crosses. If you do cross breed for ex an ambanja with a nosey be. What are you going to do with 10-15 female crosses? Who wants em? Hobbyist breeders dont. Big time breeders no way. Theycould breed their own mutts. Your gonna be lucky to wholesale them off. Then where will they end up? Prob in a pet store setting being sold as a pure bred or with no locale info given to the prospective buyer. Not trying to be a d--k but just showing you to think before you breed anything....
Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
Yep, Ferret summed it up pretty well. Some people don't mind it and others are extremely against it. Some go as far as to insult the animal, as if the poor thing had anything to do with it!
I've got two crosses and one of them is actually my favorite panther. He's not super saturated but I still find his more pastel colors beautiful. The important difference to note, however, that one was sold to me as a mistake (as a Nosy be) and the breeder immediately alerted me to the mistake when he realized it, and the other was sold to me as a pure locale (I have it on good authority that the lineage is definitely mixed), so the breeder is not being entirely truthful.
I've got two crosses and one of them is actually my favorite panther. He's not super saturated but I still find his more pastel colors beautiful. The important difference to note, however, that one was sold to me as a mistake (as a Nosy be) and the breeder immediately alerted me to the mistake when he realized it, and the other was sold to me as a pure locale (I have it on good authority that the lineage is definitely mixed), so the breeder is not being entirely truthful.
They won't be mutants physically but they will essentially be worthless if your plans lie in breeding. The females all look the same so pick your favorite colored male and match his locale for the female unless you want to be stuck with tons of unwanted babies later. Male crosses are only good to individual people (certainly no offense to them!), not breeders, and no ones wants mutt females. That's just the way it is!
I hope there isnt mutants or health problems from crosses.Im getting a Ambilobe/Tamatave cross from a reputable breeder.I would hope if there were some question as to the babies being less then perfect they would let the buyers know.
I wish I had done just a tad more research, I wouldnt have bought a cross and would have stuck with a pure locality.But for some reason I was under the impression that a Panther was a Panther and it was much the same as crossing a ultramel cornsnake with a albino cornsnake(the same snake, different morph).
But apparently not and now Im stuck with a mutt.BUT on the other hand I probably wont ever breed, it would have been nice to keep my options open, especially in light of how much these things cost.
I wish I had done just a tad more research, I wouldnt have bought a cross and would have stuck with a pure locality.But for some reason I was under the impression that a Panther was a Panther and it was much the same as crossing a ultramel cornsnake with a albino cornsnake(the same snake, different morph).
But apparently not and now Im stuck with a mutt.BUT on the other hand I probably wont ever breed, it would have been nice to keep my options open, especially in light of how much these things cost.
javsto
New Member
this is what i was trying to figure out, greater risk of health concerns with cross breeding instead of pure. But I understand what you are saying concerning less interest in cross breed instead of pure as far as selling is concerned.
Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
It is believed that the more you cross them (cross x cross, down multiple generations) the weaker they become. But if it's A x B then your animal should be no less healthy than a pure A or B. Mine are doing great, and one of them is just growing like a weed regardless of how much I feed him. A reputable breeder wouldn't sell you an animal they know is weak or ill, so if the breeder you chose is a good guy/lady then you should be fine. However, if you regret the decision, is it too late to cancel the order and get a pure locale?
Ace
Avid Member
it is, no health problems what so ever from being a cross.
its just when it comes to the panther chameleon, many people prefer to keep the locales intact from the same regions they come from madagascar. so people can know the different variations exactly as it is in madagascar, however "purists" take it to the extreme in my opinion, and then the other side of extreme is the "he/she could care less, a pardalis is a pardalis", but overall its what sells, i myself feel we need both extremes to balance it out, both have valid reasons, but i feel keeping the lines seperate is a good idea,and has more warrant of keeping the same type of locales as it was many years ago and even more so in the future. dont get me wrong i do have dreams of crossing breeding "one time" and thats it, but i will stick to a locale first
Thats what scares me.Its mostly a ambilobe tamatave cross but has a total of 5 different things in it. So I have to assume its been crossed more then once....As a first cham. the last thing I want is a weak animal.Then Ill never know if its my husbandry or a bad animal if something happens.
I wonder if this is just a rumor started by those that dont agree with crossing or if someone has documented that these animals are weaker???
I wonder if this is just a rumor started by those that dont agree with crossing or if someone has documented that these animals are weaker???
Ace
Avid Member
let me guess, its from the kammers
crosses arent bad,
if it makes you feel better, think of dogs(though totally differnet)
pure ones have more health ssues than mutts
with panthers, none whatsoever, actually the only bad thing with panthers or any animals is inbreeding continuosly, that gives bad mutations
Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
This is something I've heard on a couple threads but have not really had anyone with lots of experience, like Kammers, supply any first hand evidence. It is also thought though, if I remember correctly, that CBB panthers who don't get new blood will also weaken after a few generations, and it's attributed to something that might be missing from our husbandry that is making the CBs lose their edge multiple generations down the line. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I've heard on the forum.
Again, if it worries you too much I would speak to the breeder and see what can be done about getting you a pure cham. But I really wouldn't be too worried. I would take a cross any day happily.
camimom
New Member
let me guess, its from the kammers
crosses arent bad,
if it makes you feel better, think of dogs(though totally differnet)
pure ones have more health ssues than mutts
with panthers, none whatsoever, actually the only bad thing with panthers or any animals is inbreeding continuosly, that gives bad mutations
Just so you know,when purebred dogs are bred properly, they shouldnt have any health problems. yes some types are susceptible to illnessses, such as hip problems, but when the blood lines are researched and the dogs are bred properly, most of the time there is no health problem. ANd fyi, mutts have just has many problems as purebreds, and cna even inherit health problems from both breeds, doubling the problem.
I just bought a purebred english setter puppy who comes from a long line of hunting champions, and so far, no one on either side of his parents have had major health problems, not including the random issue herer or there, but just like humans, its bound to happen once in a while.
Ace
Avid Member
interesting, i heard of this as well, but i think it has to do with new genes to come in from WC's, breeder hobbyists, i assume do this from time to time no doubt
javsto
New Member
let me guess, its from the kammers
crosses arent bad,
if it makes you feel better, think of dogs(though totally differnet)
pure ones have more health ssues than mutts
with panthers, none whatsoever, actually the only bad thing with panthers or any animals is inbreeding continuosly, that gives bad mutations
I was just on the kammers webpage and they post a very nice looking panther "GKAR" who is 50% ambi, 18.75 anbanja, 12.5 Nosy Be, 12.5 sambava, 6.25 maro and i was looking into buying one of his offspring but how much of that degredation in crossbreeding should I really be concerned with health wise? Not to talk ill of them since they are a sponsor but has anyone had any concerns with them as far as being a reputable breeder/seller?
Could you please post any evidence you are basing this statement on? This doesn't make any sense from my understanding (admittedly limited) of genetics.
Ace
Avid Member
thanks for the info, i honestly did not know that, but my prefernce i rather pick up a mutt from a shelter than pure breeds any day, just not my cup of tea
Ace
Avid Member
i got my ambilobe from them in person at a reptile expo, very nice people, i even got to see a offpsring from Gkar, that is a subadult, all i can say is healthy like any other cham they had that was "pure", and very colorful, very differnt, usually "their" crosses i see are more neon like
