Panther Cross breeding

[ferretinmyshoes]

(I apologize to everyone else for the following rant)

junglejoe - you are being unbelievably arrogant and rude. If you go down the street and the first 20 people agree with you that the sky is purple, does that make you inarguably correct and also an expert? Schooling may not impress you because you may not have any. Otherwise you would have some understanding of what it entails and the meaning behind it. For those that have actually DONE the research rather than just reading what other people think about things they don't have actual experience with, you are sounding like a fool. Take a moment to read about evolution and genetics before you disagree and argue (rudely and immaturely) with someone who is an expert in the field and has the credentials to back it up. That's what the PhD means - he has the knowledge and experience through correct methods which makes his claims credible. Credibility is everything and you ain't got it! Your temper tantrum has no place here because you can kick and scream all you want but you don't have anything to back it up at all. Science is a little more than someone's gut feeling. Your opinions are not enough, move on. You have taken a very reasonable and interesting thread and ruined it.

(I'm done now)

 

[sandrachameleon]

Have not read the whole thread. Only the original post.

Breeding two different panther locals together is frequently called cross breeding, though technically it isnt - both being f pardalis.

The resulting cross-local animals will have no health issues, any more than "pure" breeds. However they will be considered lesser animals, less desireable, worth less $ by many people. A number of forum members are very anti-cross breed. People get quite hot about the topic.

I personally rather like my crossbreeds just as much if not more than my pure breeds. I have no trouble selling the females (clearly labelled as cross breeds), primarily to people who just want a kewl pet (rather than to breeders).

LOTS of previous threads on this topic, some of which include:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/panther-hybrids-329/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/cross...panthers-31504
https://www.chameleonforums.com/crossbreeding-25079/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/why-n...ambilobe-7124/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/why-o...08/#post378125
https://www.chameleonforums.com/cross-breeding-40955
https://www.chameleonforums.com/breed...odlines-27185/

 

[javsto]

My male panther is 82.5 ambilobe, 17.5 ambanja. I think he is absolutely awesome in terms of his coloration. The only complaint I would have is that he is not friendly, but he's a chameleon so that comes with the territory. Other than that, he is absolutely healthy.

like that GKAR cham, how do you know or what the percentage of sireing is when it comes to your pet, i.e. how many times did its parents breed to be reduced to 82.5 ambi and even more bred to be only 17.5 ambanja?

 

[javsto]

Have not read the whole thread. Only the original post.

Breeding two different panther locals together is frequently called cross breeding, though technically it isnt - both being f pardalis.

The resulting cross-local animals will have no health issues, any more than "pure" breeds. However they will be considered lesser animals, less desireable, worth less $ by many people. A number of forum members are very anti-cross breed. People get quite hot about the topic.

I personally rather like my crossbreeds just as much if not more than my pure breeds. I have no trouble selling the females (clearly labelled as cross breeds), primarily to people who just want a kewl pet (rather than to breeders).

LOTS of previous threads on this topic, some of which include:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/panther-hybrids-329/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/cross...panthers-31504
https://www.chameleonforums.com/crossbreeding-25079/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/why-n...ambilobe-7124/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/why-o...08/#post378125
https://www.chameleonforums.com/cross-breeding-40955
https://www.chameleonforums.com/breed...odlines-27185/

quotes and links aside, this is part of the main meaning for starting this thread, not only the health questions. You say that cross breeding produces offspring that are less valuable to others and iyho, but as far as the panther in question GKAR is concerned for example, on the kammerflage site, his offspring are selling for $275. Is that "cheap" or an bargin compared to a pure bred panther from lets say screameleons which sell for slightly more ($299.). Would I be or should i be paying more or less for an offspring of his which would be even greatly more crossbred considering his radical or severe lineage and crossbreeding?

 

[melric]

Have you guys seen the cross on the Kammers home page. He is absolutely beautiful cross and all.

 

[pssh]

So I'm being lazy and dont want to read the whole thing. Sorry if some of what I say has been said already.

The argument that crosses mate in the wild is not exactly strong. A tamatave from the east coast is not going to mate with, say, a nosy be. Sure a few close locales might cross but whatever. All panthers seem to become weaker over the generations. There is something that we jast aren't able to provide to keep them strong (unlike veileds.) Though I only have one cross, she has grown rather slow compared to my normal growth panthers, but still a ton faster than my petite little sambavas. The ankaramy locale, both when they aren't and when they are crossed, are much more sensitive than the other locales.

just my $0.02

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I think if you were to cross just to "see what happens" it would probably be a very wise idea to cull the females as they are usually what ends up getting mixed up and messed around. Plus I feel EXTREMELY strongly that you always need to be truthful about the lineage/cross percentages when possible. Unfortunately, not everyone is truthful and things can get messed up.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

quotes and links aside, this is part of the main meaning for starting this thread, not only the health questions. You say that cross breeding produces offspring that are less valuable to others and iyho, but as far as the panther in question GKAR is concerned for example, on the kammerflage site, his offspring are selling for $275. Is that "cheap" or an bargin compared to a pure bred panther from lets say screameleons which sell for slightly more ($299.). Would I be or should i be paying more or less for an offspring of his which would be even greatly more crossbred considering his radical or severe lineage and crossbreeding?

There is something to be said for reputation here. The kammers are a well known and reputable breeder with many pictures of their proven crossbred. I can assure you that they are probably only selling the pretty offspring that came from that cross to keep up that image and reputation. It doesn't help them at all to sell a muddy looking cham from a brilliant looking sire for all that money. But that is something they are willing to do. And because they are established and well known and people go to their site already it is easier for them to sell pretty crosses. You being an upstart with no lineage to trace or even a successful cross to show for it wouldn't create much of an incentive. No offense, that's just how it is. And again, you have to consider what you'd do with the others that won't sell (the dull patterns and all females). I think their rep as an established breeder makes it easier for them to sell their animals because even though it's a mystery as to how they'll turn out, you have some assurances nonetheless.

 

[DeviousMike]

like that GKAR cham, how do you know or what the percentage of sireing is when it comes to your pet, i.e. how many times did its parents breed to be reduced to 82.5 ambi and even more bred to be only 17.5 ambanja?

I trust my breeder who has been on this cross breeding project for some time. I'm not really going to dispute Lance because I really don't feel the need to. He's been into reptiles almost longer then I have been alive. I'm just stating that I have a cham that has great coloration and if you look up my photo thread of him, I'm not the only one that thinks so. Crosses can turn out great as I own living proof of it.

 

[javsto]

There is something to be said for reputation here. The kammers are a well known and reputable breeder with many pictures of their proven crossbred. I can assure you that they are probably only selling the pretty offspring that came from that cross to keep up that image and reputation. It doesn't help them at all to sell a muddy looking cham from a brilliant looking sire for all that money. But that is something they are willing to do. And because they are established and well known and people go to their site already it is easier for them to sell pretty crosses. You being an upstart with no lineage to trace or even a successful cross to show for it wouldn't create much of an incentive. No offense, that's just how it is. And again, you have to consider what you'd do with the others that won't sell (the dull patterns and all females). I think their rep as an established breeder makes it easier for them to sell their animals because even though it's a mystery as to how they'll turn out, you have some assurances nonetheless.

uh excuse me but how am I being an upstart? I started this thread in hopes of getting good solid advice for when i hope to make my first cham purchase this weekend and wanting to find out what are the pros and cons when consideing cross breeding. I was truly planning on using kammerflage as a backup if i didnt find anything that interested me on sunday and still am, not only for the lineage that I see on thier site, but there pet gaurantee and overall price for a male which is slightly better compared to other sponsers. As far as questioning the price factor of their pets, I was mearly responding to what another senior member here opinion that crossesbreeds " will be considered lesser animals, less desireable, worth less $ by many people.

 

[Joann]

Wow this thread sucks

 

[ChamChick]

I think that all pardalis are beautiful creatures, crosses or not...However, I will not be cross breeding any of my animals, which is why I have stuck to Ambilobe. Having 2 RB and 2 BB will allow me to switch them up a bit, and perhaps get color variation that way (RB, BB, or a mix). I'm afraid that if a lot of cross breeding occurs in captive, then maybe one day down the road, years from now of course, there will no longer be pure locales, or, if there are, THEY would be rare. I would OWN a morph, but I would not breed one. I would hate to have a female morph that I produced to be sold as a pure locale, and cause any issues as far as lineage goes (as if there arent enough problems with Panther lineage already).... BUT, I feel everyone has the right to their own opinion, and I will respect it.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

uh excuse me but how am I being an upstart? I started this thread in hopes of getting good solid advice for when i hope to make my first cham purchase this weekend and wanting to find out what are the pros and cons when consideing cross breeding.

You are getting your first chameleons this weekend - that makes you an upstart. It's not an insult. Experienced or not, you are just starting out with your project and are not established yet at all. So as someone with no reputation for breeding success (an upstart) it's going to be harder for you to sell your chams. I'm sorry if I offended you, those are just the facts. Personally I would choose to spend more on a reputable breeder than just somebody who started breeding chams for the first time because with a big breeder I am more comfortable with how they treat their animals (well or they wouldn't be breeding well) and know they know the lineage they're selling.

That doesn't hold true for everyone of course but it also depends on why you're looking at breeding to begin with. A fun project? To make money? It is not a profitable venture unless you have a big facility based on what many others have said about their projects. So I guess something else to take into consideration besides genetics is why are you interested in breeding? Do you have the capability to house and raise neonates for several months and can afford the thousands of crickets they will go through in just a week? And what will you do with the offspring you don't sell? Very few people want females, crossed or not, because they're not as flashy. And if you're planning on selling your babies to just anyone you will probably be left with a lot of females. There are many problems that females have just trying to lay eggs, especially if your husbandry is not really good so you may lose your breeding project before it even takes off. These are all good things to consider now before purchasing a pair with the intent of breeding.

If I were to offer you my best piece of advice it would be to get one chameleon now and learn all the fine details of husbandry and taking care of a male chameleon and raising food sources and if all goes well and you really enjoy it then look at getting a female chameleon later if you're still interested in breeding.

 

[javsto]

You are getting your first chameleons this weekend - that makes you an upstart. It's not an insult. Experienced or not, you are just starting out with your project and are not established yet at all. So as someone with no reputation for breeding success (an upstart) it's going to be harder for you to sell your chams. I'm sorry if I offended you, those are just the facts. Personally I would choose to spend more on a reputable breeder than just somebody who started breeding chams for the first time because with a big breeder I am more comfortable with how they treat their animals (well or they wouldn't be breeding well) and know they know the lineage they're selling.

I never said I was looking to sell or breed my cham(s) for the public at anytime. I know that I would need a hell of alot more experience than just reading other ppl's threads and posts. One of the questions I asked is how someone would verify or break down the ancenstry of a cham like the one on the kammer homepage that looks like the nutritional info chart on the side of a box of cereal. 18.5 this, 65.2 that, 12.5 this other etc, etc. Im getting a pet for myself, which hopefully will last me several years if I manage to learn something on this site to properly keep it alive and healthy.

 

[javsto]

If I were to offer you my best piece of advice it would be to get one chameleon now and learn all the fine details of husbandry and taking care of a male chameleon and raising food sources and if all goes well and you really enjoy it then look at getting a female chameleon later if you're still interested in breeding.[/QUOTE]

Right, while I asked about crossbreeding, I should have said that I have no intention of breeding chams in the first place for making $$$ or supplemental income. I should have said that in the first place and i apologize for any "foul feelings" that may have come across to you for your response. I just like to get as much info on a subject as I can but at times its just too much or goes in a different direction that is initially intended.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I started this thread in hopes of getting good solid advice for when i hope to make my first cham purchase this weekend and wanting to find out what are the pros and cons when consideing cross breeding.

Im asking cause the show is this sunday and just want to make sure that there would not be any severe problems if i get 1 panther male with 1 panter female each from a different region or locale(seperate cages of course until mating) and I dont want mutant babies later in life.

Sorry, I guess these statements led me to believe your intent was to breed...

 

[javsto]

Well I must say Im quite impressed with Kammerflage.I emailed them and asked their take on crosses(not being one to take idle remarks on forums too seriously).But I was concerned about the cham I ordered.And they called me last night to explain their experience with this..If anything they have some great customer service.I personally feel better about ordering my cross.I still wish I had gotten a pure locale(I hesitate to say purebred since they are all Panthers)..In the snake world when two, lets say kingsnakes, from different locales get together in the wild they call the results an intergrade.
Granted, one as mixed up as the one I ordered is unlikely to happen in the wild but intergrades do happen all the time.There is no guarentee that a wild caught animal is going to be "pure" either.
I guess as a newbie I will have to make up my mind which camp Im going to be in.Ive never liked hybrids myself, if a hybrid is what you can call a cross(not the looks but the whole sullying of the pure lines,).So If I should ever decide to breed in the future.I will not breed my cross but will get as pure an animal as I can.

I also emailed a couple of sponsors to ask them directly about their cross bred chams, if any, or speciific crossbreeds of different sire/dame on thier particular website but have still not recieved any response. A concern I have, not being a vet or someone with enough knowledge on the subject of crossbreeding, is the possiblity of birth defects as a result of crossbreeding as opposed to pure bred offspring. No one wants to buy a "lemon" (in reference to car shopping) only to have it crap out on you shortly after purchasing it then having to go out and get another after going through the trouble of learning, caring, seting up and not losing faith or being discouraged from starting over a 2nd time.

 

[javsto]

Sorry, I guess these statements led me to believe your intent was to breed...

yeah I should have worded it better but what I was trying to get across is the results of crossbred chams instead of pure bred as far as health is concerned.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Crossing panthers is like crossing dogs. They are all pardalis which is the same species, like dogs are all canines, even as different as they can look. The differences in panther colors are different locales (or breeds), like there are different dog breeds or cat colors. So no birth defects from crossing specifically unless you cross two different species like a panther and a veiled. Birth defects can occur randomly though, with any pairing.

 

[Kent67]

A concern I have, not being a vet or someone with enough knowledge on the subject of crossbreeding, is the possiblity of birth defects as a result of crossbreeding as opposed to pure bred offspring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

 

[DeviousMike]

. So no birth defects from crossing specifically unless you cross two different species like a panther and a veiled.

I believe that this is not biologically possible. I think you would be more spot on if you said that you were trying to breed brother and sister. Inbreeding significantly increases the chance of recessive genes being passed on, thus increasing the chances of unwanted/harmful traits being passed on.