panther eye problem

Annem

New Member
can anyone tell me what could be wrong with my cham. girls eyes please? Both eyes are bulging as on photo with no discharge.My other chams. are all ok. Could it be lack of vit A?
 

Attachments

  • lottie eyes 002.JPG
    lottie eyes 002.JPG
    75.4 KB · Views: 1,000
All my screen vivs are sprayed twice daily plus extra light misting when weather is warmer than usual for uk.No substrate on bottom which is wiped soon after spraying.Can't understand why only one cham. has this eye problem. There's no ficus plant in the viv. that could have been the cause.
 
Is she like this all the time, or just periodically?
its normal for them to bug out and roll their eyes now and then, to help clean them. It is not normal for the eyes to be bugged out all the time.

if she breaks the fiscus branches in her travels, it is possible to get the white irritating sap in her eyes. A flush with saline might help.

If you are supplementing and gutloading her food the same as other female panthers chameleons, its unlikely to be a vitamin deficiency.

has a vet had a look at her eyes?
 
She started eye problem last Saturday. Yes, I supplement and gut load insects.She has umberella plant in her viv. a few silk plants and branches.Visited vet. who said vit A deficiency as her eyes are clean but I don't think he has much experience with chams.I'm able to handle her which is not the usual case as she's a hisser!
 
Is she like this all the time, or just periodically?
its normal for them to bug out and roll their eyes now and then, to help clean them. It is not normal for the eyes to be bugged out all the time.

if she breaks the fiscus branches in her travels, it is possible to get the white irritating sap in her eyes. A flush with saline might help.

If you are supplementing and gutloading her food the same as other female panthers chameleons, its unlikely to be a vitamin deficiency.

has a vet had a look at her eyes?

I'm with Sandra. If they are like this all the time I'd take her the the vets.
 
Did the vet do a blood test to determine the vitamin A deficiency or is he just saying that's what it is?? What supplements do you use specifically and how often for each?? Do they have prEformed vitamin A in them (acetate, palmitate, retinol) or do they have beta carotene? What do you feed the insects specifically?? What UVB light are you using specifically (brand and type...spiral, compact, linear tube, etc.)? Is there glass or plastic between the light and the chameleon?
 
E mail me at [email protected]. I will send you some vitamin A info. The regimen is not harmful to a chameleon, i.e. no danger of overdose if followed, and if Vitamin A is the issue, which my experience tells me is highly likely, we'll get this girl fixed.
 
If you are supplementing and gutloading her food the same as other female panthers chameleons, its unlikely to be a vitamin deficiency.

Avoiding vitamin A deficiency via insect gutload supplementation essentially does not work. There is also no vitamin powder that delivers vitamin A adequately. I feel that there is no basis for your conclusion that it is "unlikely" vitamin A. It may not be, but not based upon your stated reason.
 
Avoiding vitamin A deficiency via insect gutload supplementation essentially does not work. There is also no vitamin powder that delivers vitamin A adequately. I feel that there is no basis for your conclusion that it is "unlikely" vitamin A. It may not be, but not based upon your stated reason.

I said unlikely IF the OPs other female chameleons are gutloaded and supplemented the same way. And as you know, there are several of us who use no pre-formed vitamin A supplement and know that gutloading can and does work fine.

Annem - be sure to answer kinyonga's follow-up questions - it would be important to know these things before you start adding Jim's vitamin A oil. (which is not to say there's anything wrong with adding some preformed vitamin A)
Also, what did the vet recommend as treatment?
 
Last edited:
I said unlikely IF the OPs other female chameleons are gutloaded and supplemented the same way. And as you know, there are several of us who use no pre-formed vitamin A supplement and know that gutloading can and does work fine.

Annem - be sure to answer kinyonga's follow-up questions - it would be important to know these things before you start adding Jim's vitamin A oil.
Also, what did the vet recommend as treatment?

Here's some food for thought:

1) All advice here in Forums recommends a vitamin supplementation. Most of you (the readers here) use a powder. And it includes "vitamin A". Read the label. Its actually beta-carotene, or with a product or two, retinal acetate (synthetic A). Point being, the animal is not getting true vitamin A in those powders, but no one says we should buy powders that exclude vitamin A. We all agree that animals need vitamin A. The only question is whether or not they are getting it.

2) Vitamin A deficiency is rampant in pardalis in captivity. As an early example. When we first started a large colony, with about 50 sires, using the product Herptivite, after about 6 months we noticed that about a dozen had developed the squinty eye issue. Research into some late 90's studies led us to a lack of vitamin A. We started using a liquid product available then, Reptisol, a Tetra product (no longer made, as folks don't like liquids) that I would still rate as the most effective reptile vitamin ever produced. It contained retinal palmitate, the most effective vitamin A compound. It cured all the squinting after a few doses. Did I have only 12 animals with vitamin A deficiencies ? Nope. I only had twelve that were outwardly showing it.

Certainly many folks can raise their animals without ever seeing a vitamin A deficiency. The animal may have no issues with a lack of Vitamin A, or it may not have them severe enough to manifest easily. It could be that their overall supplementation and bug regimen is so good that the animal is getting what it needs. Certainly, in the wild, they get it. However, we found that putting the vitamin A in gutload is far less effective, and far less scientific, then more direct administration.

Notables such as Scott Stahl and Gary Ferguson and others have been all over this for more than a decade. While the symptoms may not be caused by a vitamin A deficiency, it is far more easy to determine if the animal is or is not getting vitamin A to begin with, and if in doubt, to administer a safe level dose regardless so as to eliminate it as being a problem. The dose rates recommended are not close to being toxic. This is also far less intrusive then putting an animal on "antibiotics just to be safe", which many vets will do. I am not against a prophylactic antibiotic treatment just to cover the possibility of infection, but by the same token, many vets are inexperienced about all things chameleon, yet will still cost money, misdiagnose, and needlessly put an animal at a greater risk in some cases. Information here can often better equip the hobbyist to go to the vet and know if the vet is good enough, and in many cases, to have a very good discussion with the vet, with both parties learning from the other.

As it is my experience that well more than half of the eye issues in chameleons are due to or begin with a vitamin A deficiency, and I base that on hundreds of specific interventions with my own animals, and with customers and hobbyists. On a few cases I have had customers, some members of this forum, bring one back from the dead almost, where I told them "don't get your hopes up. The animal may be too far gone". I have at least a dozen such anecdotal experiences where the customer had already been to the vet, spent a small fortune, the animal was still declining, and all were clueless about vitamin A. And then they contacted me and we fixed it with vitamin A. As vitamin A is a basic need, and something that needs to be made right regardless, IMMHO it is as a no-brainer to pursue in all eye issues.

Take care.
 
Im not wanting to debate this with you, again. :)
We're both close to being on the same page anyhow. We both agree vitamin A is important, we're just not entirely agreed on the best methods of ensuring its provision. right?
I think the main difference is that I dont like oil and prefer gutload and bug variety, and think there are benefits to beta carotene, whereas I believe you do like oil as a treatment and arent sold on beta carotene.

I think knowing if the supplements the OP currently uses contain pre-formed vitamin A or not would be useful to know, either way.

tangent - I've been reading on some european forums about eye issues being, they believe, caused by lack of B vitamins.
Jim have you ever heard of vitamin B being an issue?
 
Kinyonga- I've answered most of your questions on the uk site captive bred forum. However some more answers for you- no, the vet didn't do a blood test, he didn't seem to know much about chams. I've no plastic or glass under uvb light.I'm trying another vet tomorrow who has more experience with reps.Thank you for your opinions so far.
 
Im not wanting to debate this with you, again. :)
We're both close to being on the same page anyhow. We both agree vitamin A is important, we're just not entirely agreed on the best methods of ensuring its provision. right?
I think the main difference is that I dont like oil and prefer gutload and bug variety, and think there are benefits to beta carotene, whereas I believe you do like oil as a treatment and arent sold on beta carotene.

I think knowing if the supplements the OP currently uses contain pre-formed vitamin A or not would be useful to know, either way.

tangent - I've been reading on some european forums about eye issues being, they believe, caused by lack of B vitamins.
Jim have you ever heard of vitamin B being an issue?

Sandra,
You apparently have a way of effectively gut-loading Vitamin A, or have not had deficiency issues, or a combination of both. However, my opinions on it are based on experiences that I outlined, and they are numerous. As I said, for whatever the specific reason, many keepers encounter Vitamin A deficiencies in pardalis, and it is that deficiency that I have long-advocated to inform about, and to remedy.

I have also never advocated removal of beta carotene from a diet, to respond to your saying that I "am not sold on it", which is a bit too open-ended in how it can be taken. I have never eliminated beta carotene completely to see what happens. What I have confirmed numerous times, and I have good company on this, is that even larger quantities of beta carotene in the diet will not effectively fend off a vitamin A deficiency in pardalis. To that end, it is virtually useless.

I have yet to run into anything that I could peg as a Vitamin B deficiency. I am also unfamiliar with the discussions that you refer to. As you know, I am a bit skeptical of many forum dicussions, as I too often see conclusions made and advice rendered based on an exceedingly small sample of experience. Too often something is being advised to be fixed that is not broken, or the advice is just plain wrong.

However, as I noted in the recent growth thread, I am certain that the supplementation regimens used by most come up short. Its only a question of how short.
 
Jim...what chameleons or other lizards have you raised in fairly large numbers besides panthers?

We will just keep it with chameleons, as I have been raising reptiles for 41 years.

I have raised in quantity Jacksons, Veileds, Oustalets, Carpets, and Veileds. I have worked with perhaps a dozen other chameleon species, but not multi-generational in quantity. Of those five, the panthers have the highest incidence of eye issues. Oustalets and carpets, on the same diet that will cause eye issues in panthers, have a much lower incidence, for example. I do not know why.
 
Have taken my girl cham. to another vet today. He's given her a shot for possible vit A deficiency.She's to go back on Wednesday for either another shot or tests.
 
One of my animals was exhibiting the "squint eye" a while back. I started on the vit. a oil like Jim recommended, and problem solved in two days. I'm a believer. :)
 
Back
Top Bottom