Panther Toxic Plant Treatment/ Recovery

How are your crickets being kept? Is there any way they could have eaten moldy grain before being fed to your cham? if so read this. Post in thread 'Aflatoxicosis'
I did not know about this and will cross post there. Thank you for the advice. The crickets are in a large critter keeper with cardboard. I give them a very small amount of grain (cat food) which I’ll be removing going forward. I feed them fresh vegetables (carrots, potatoes, sweet potatoes, sweet peppers, zucchini) with some spirulina, Timothy hay, bee pollen and mazuri gut loader. If I see any sign of mold I immediately clean the entire container.
 
Morning update on Godzilla.

I found him in the bottom of his hospital bin both back legs holding his front legs. He was a lot more trusting of me helping him and was happy to run up the cage screen while I reset the hospital bin for the day. He took a large poop with some orange in the urite but I have not seen him go in several days. He preferred I hold him for a bit before going back in his hospital bag. On two occasions where he’d grabbed himself he was able to unlock his grip and move on. His bruising does not seem to be getting worse or better.
 

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Did your chameleon actually eat the leaves or datura plant parts? Did any of the insects he ate, eat the leaves?
Not to my knowledge. He doesn’t seem to eat leaves but I have no real way of knowing what the crickets may have taken a nibble of.

I did wash it with dawn, rinsed it for 10 minutes until there were no bubbles, sprayed it with vinegar, rinsed it for another 20 minutes and replaced the top layer of dirt with organic potting mix.

I got him last Tuesday (06.37) morning and luckily was working from home last week. I was able to keep an eye on him while adjusting and noticed his first fall Friday.

From what I’ve read online datura toxicity causes GI issues and he had a great poop this morning. His symptoms are neurological and specifically affecting his dexterity. Someone suggested an issue with his crickets and potential wheat toxicity.
 
I live in Florida so dubia are illegal
Me too, but there are several types that are legal. I like and have discoid, which are very similar to dubia. It’s not as easy to find a source for them. http://www.lindasgonebuggie.com/ is a nice source for bugs with very fair prices. Variety packs are available. She usually has silkworms but only send with enough food to keep them alive during shipping, so you’d need to buy some chow. She’s located on the panhandle, so shipping is pretty quick.
No idea what part of Florida you’re in. I’m on the Space coast and have a 💩load of baby superworms and a few baby silkworms to spare, as well as baby discoids. I’ll be in Viera tomorrow and Thursday sharing my bugs with others, so PM if you can meet there too. I don’t have enough to warrant any drive over about 20 minutes though.
Yes, he does have two different UVB bulbs. I can remove on and raise the other one from the top of his cage.
He only needs one. Put the other light aside for now. If you don’t have other animals, maybe you can use it on a nice free range area. I keep my spare stuff in case an animal in need comes my way.
If you need a good vet and are able to travel to Orlando, I really like Dr Bruce https://myavho.com/ Another decent vet is https://www.orlandoexoticveterinarian.com/ but they will tell you to do crazy stuff like give your chameleon a warm bath for an hour, trapped in a bath container and sitting on a heat mat.
 
Me too, but there are several types that are legal. I like and have discoid, which are very similar to dubia. It’s not as easy to find a source for them. http://www.lindasgonebuggie.com/ is a nice source for bugs with very fair prices. Variety packs are available. She usually has silkworms but only send with enough food to keep them alive during shipping, so you’d need to buy some chow. She’s located on the panhandle, so shipping is pretty quick.
No idea what part of Florida you’re in. I’m on the Space coast and have a 💩load of baby superworms and a few baby silkworms to spare, as well as baby discoids. I’ll be in Viera tomorrow and Thursday sharing my bugs with others, so PM if you can meet there too. I don’t have enough to warrant any drive over about 20 minutes though.

He only needs one. Put the other light aside for now. If you don’t have other animals, maybe you can use it on a nice free range area. I keep my spare stuff in case an animal in need comes my way.
If you need a good vet and are able to travel to Orlando, I really like Dr Bruce https://myavho.com/ Another decent vet is https://www.orlandoexoticveterinarian.com/ but they will tell you to do crazy stuff like give your chameleon a warm bath for an hour, trapped in a bath container and sitting on a heat mat.
Thank you. I’m in palm beach. I wasn’t able to find any silk or horn worms live locally. I ordered some online that should be here in a few days.

I’ve been in veterinary medicine for 15 years and know a really good exotic vet about a half hour from me that also takes drop off emergencies.
 
Thank you. I’m in palm beach. I wasn’t able to find any silk or horn worms live locally. I ordered some online that should be here in a few days.

I’ve been in veterinary medicine for 15 years and know a really good exotic vet about a half hour from me that also takes drop off emergencies.
Excellent on both. :) I just read the other post about the aflac aflot alfalfa aspergillum toxin and @kinyonga has given the best advice ( she always does;)).
 
If you don’t mind me asking, what do you mean “I’ve been in veterinary medicine for 15 years”?
@MissSkittles said…”and @kinyonga has given the best advice ( she always does)” ….you have too much faith in me! There’s still so much I have to learn.

@MissSkittles …An aspergillum (or less commonly, aspergilium or aspergil) is a liturgical implement used to sprinkle holy water...
I think you mean Aspergillus. Imagine one letter difference! 😉
 
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If you don’t mind me asking, what do you mean “I’ve been in veterinary medicine for 15 years”?
@MissSkittles said…”and @kinyonga has given the best advice ( she always does)” ….you have too much faith in me! There’s still so much I have to learn.

@MissSkittles …An aspergillum (or less commonly, aspergilium or aspergil) is a liturgical implement used to sprinkle holy water...
I think you mean Aspergillus. Imagine one letter difference! 😉
I started working in (mammalian) clinical veterinary medicine 15 years ago, primarily in emergency care. I’ve since moved into other roles outside of clinical practice (In other words corporate) but have remained in the veterinary medicine profession for 15 years.

I’m also very familiar with aspergillus mold. Prior to getting this chameleon (or anything in or around his enclosure) I briefly lived in a mold infested apartment and have personally been diagnosed with mold toxicity. I am highly allergic to aspergillus specifically, which lends me to think that aspergillus is not a contributing factor.
 
You said…” I am highly allergic to aspergillus specifically, which lends me to think that aspergillus is not a contributing factor”… but aren't aspergillosis and aflatoxicosis both diseases caused by Aspergillus species…so then would the chameleon have aflaoxicosis? Am I missing something?
Always looking to learn more.
 
You said…” I am highly allergic to aspergillus specifically, which lends me to think that aspergillus is not a contributing factor”… but aren't aspergillosis and aflatoxicosis both diseases caused by Aspergillus species…so then would the chameleon have aflaoxicosis? Am I missing something?
Always looking to learn more.
That’s a great question and one I am not able to answer. I’m by no means an expert in mold or toxicity of any kind.

What I meant by being allergic to aspergillus, which is commonly found in food and would contribute to Aflaoxicosis, is that if aspergillus were present in my crickets enclosure/ food source I would be affected by the aspergillus as well. That is not to say that I did not get crickets that had been raised on moldy grain, I brought them home and even if I had put them on fresh veggies the aflaoxicosis had already taken affect on them and my chameleon got sick eating one. However, my bearded dragon eats from the same cricket supply. I keep separate containers for each of them but I buy their crickets together and feed them the same supply of food. If aflaoxicosis were the culprit of my chameleons neurological problems I would assume to see the same symptoms or similar in my bearded dragon.

After double reading the post on Aflaoxicosis it’s hard to say. I agree that my chameleon faced a sudden onset of toxicity. However, the symptoms my chameleon is facing are none mentioned in the Aflaoxicosis post. He does not seem to be in pain, he is not on the bottom of his cage, he is not having seizures. The neurological symptom he has is affecting his dexterity causing him to grab onto himself and subsequently lose his grip and fall.
 
You said…” I am highly allergic to aspergillus specifically, which lends me to think that aspergillus is not a contributing factor”… but aren't aspergillosis and aflatoxicosis both diseases caused by Aspergillus species…so then would the chameleon have aflaoxicosis? Am I missing something?
Always looking to learn more.
I also can’t rule out that what I presume and am calling a neurological issue is “simply” him having injured himself in a fall and him protecting himself from further injury. Although, I don’t know the reason that he suddenly fell and the extent, if any, of his injuries. I assume it is neurological based on clinical experience of other toxins in mammals. There’s so much that can be going on here. Aside from not being able to climb properly he is alert, eating, and does not seem to be is distress…. Until he grabs one of his arms and gets scared that he’s immobilized himself.

I can only pin point two things.
- I don’t know why he fell “originally” (meaning the first time I saw it when the duranta was in his cage).
- I don’t know why he keeps grabbing himself.
 
In my experience, the most common reason for grabbing the limbs like that, is due to a nutrient imbalance…but haven’t you only had him a few (8 or so) weeks? That might not have been long enough.
I did have one case of a chameleon doing that, when it wasn’t an imbalance of nutrients, but it also could not have fallen far enough to injure its brain…but we suspected some neurological issue in that case…but even the necropsy didn’t show a reason.
 
In my experience, the most common reason for grabbing the limbs like that, is due to a nutrient imbalance…but haven’t you only had him a few (8 or so) weeks? That might not have been long enough.
I did have one case of a chameleon doing that, when it wasn’t an imbalance of nutrients, but it also could not have fallen far enough to injure its brain…but we suspected some neurological issue in that case…but even the necropsy didn’t show a reason.
Oh no, not even close. I have officially had him for 7 days, 1 week. The more I read the more I am ruling out any nutritional issues. The first time I noticed him fall was this past Friday, 4 days ago. I refer to this as the “first” fall. I do not know if he had fallen previously. I do not know what caused him to fall and originally attributed it to toxic plants. He fell from the top of an XL reptibreeze to a bare bottom. After the “first” fall I put moss on the bottom of the cage, he doesn’t intentionally spend time on the bottom of the cage and I was not concerned about him eating it. Since the “first” fall he has started the limb grabbing. When he grabs his limbs he immobilizes himself and eventually falls again, he fell 4 additional times into moss before I placed him into the hospital bin. These falls were from much shorter distances.

I originally thought it was toxicity, then afloaxicosis came up. However, the duranta toxicity causing GI upset which he is not displaying and I believe afloaxicosis would have affected my bearded dragon.

When you say the limb grabbing you experienced was suspected to be neurological but wasn’t found on necropsy, what was this related to and why was he necropsied?
 
I had a pair of WC chameleons and one started holding its own legs and would turn its head in odd positions…it went on like this for a long time…vets couldn’t figure out what it was…nothing showed to be off….so we let It go on like that…nothing else to do…when it died a year or more later the necropsy showed nothing that would explain it. Maybe it was a stroke or something…but there was no evidence of anything, just a mystery.
 
I had a pair of WC chameleons and one started holding its own legs and would turn its head in odd positions…it went on like this for a long time…vets couldn’t figure out what it was…nothing showed to be off….so we let It go on like that…nothing else to do…when it died a year or more later the necropsy showed nothing that would explain it. Maybe it was a stroke or something…but there was no evidence of anything, just a mystery.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

This guy seems totally normal except for the occasional arm/ leg holding. His bruise isn’t getting worse. He’s eating, he’s drinking, he’s pooping, and he’s mostly climbing. Everything I’ve read about toxicity he should be having GI problems. I can’t find anything that suggests a neurotoxin or other explanation.

He’s happy to run up the sides of his cage or his pothos when I give him a little “recess” from his hospital bin. This evening when I was changing out his hospital bin and giving him some “recess” he didn’t have any issues for over an hour until I turned his misters on. I think the slippery bamboo scared him but then he turned into a total hand baby and just wanted me to hold him.

I found an oak branch I’m going to change the bamboo out for but I can’t conclusively define what is going on with him. He just sometimes grabs his legs, freaks himself out and falls.

I really think he fell from being on a toxic plant and something happened when he fell.
 
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