Phoenix Worms

[Brad Ramsey]

Anyone have experience with these?
I just bought 100 today, they're kind of expensive...but I am impressed by the nutritional analysis:
9.4% fat
17.3% protein
8155 ppm cal (compare to 345 in a cricket, 133 in a mealworm, 124 in a zophoba)

5355 ppm Phos

Cal to phos ratio is 1 to 5.2

No success with Kitty eating them yet but I didn't get them till later today and he was pretty full.

-Brad

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Sorry editing is not working.
That ratio is 1 to .52
Sounds a little better, doesn't it?

-Brad

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Okay I found the supplier.
I bought mine today at a reptile store ($9.00 for 100).
Better price online (duh) 400+ for 26.00 and they don't charge shipping.
http://www.phoenixworm.com/servlet/StoreFront

-Brad

 

[DESERT DAVE]

Hey Brad, I Got A 100 Can Of Phoenix Worms Two Days Ago And They Have Been All Over Them. I Have Panthers And Veileds. I Give 5 A Day And They Are Gone. My One 3 Y/old Female Panther Has Not Got Nearly The Fat Pockets Or Size To Her Casque As Her Twin Sister I Also Have. I Am Hoping The High Percent Of Fat In These Phoenix Worm's Will Help Out And Plump Her Up Gradually. I Have To Keep It Balanced With Dusted Crickets And Butterflies From The Yard. I Ordered Goliath And Silkworms For Friday As I Like To Spoil My Girls. Any Idea On The Nutritious Value Of Goliath's Or Silkworms? I Know The Silkworm's Are Raved About On This Forum But The Goliath I Don't Know Much About. Big Green Worms I Saw At A Reptile Show In Anaheim Last Summer

 

[Brenda R]

I have used Phoenix Worms for my bearded dragons and they just went wild over them. I was told they should be used only as an occasional snack for the dragons because the fat content. They are a little bit expensive but they loved them. I have not tried them on my chameleon yet. She is just a baby and I was not sure if it would be good for her.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Two people have mentioned high fat, and the reason I was excited about the phoenix worm (besides the high calcium %) was the very low fat. Only about 9%. That's only 3% more than a cricket and about half of the % of fat in a zophoba. Waxworms are about 20% fat, do you think the people who told you phoenix worms were high in fat were confusing them with waxworm?
Dave I'll have to see if I can find analysis you asked about.

-Brad

 

[roo_71]

Anyone who feeds these things should poke around in the poop to see if they are really getting digested. My LIMITED experience with feeding out fly larva has shown that the chams couldn’t digest them too well. So what’s the point of all the nutritional benefits if they aren’t getting digested? My 2 cents.

-roo

 

[FaunaBgirl]

roo_71? What kind of chameleon in that in your picture, please. And what is the age? Thank you.

 

[roo_71]

It's a captive hatched baby R. spectrum - just born. They are leaf chams and the only species known to be found from east to the far west of southern Africa I believe. Most leaf chams are from SE Africa.

-roo

 

[rcagosto]

I would like to know how you guys are feeding the pheonix worms to the chams. I'm having problems. She ignores them. Maybe because they are small, but she would eat mealies and wax. Any advice, I got 100 and they are about to go to waste.

Thanks, Roberto

 

[roo_71]

Here is the full pic of the baby

Here it is several months later.

I eventually gave it to Chris Anderson. I dont work with this species any more. I had too, too many different species at one time and wasnt focusing enough on each - that and the time it took to maintain them all. So I downsized, but someday I would like to get back into spectrums again.

-roo

 

[Brad Ramsey]

I just checked poop today and so far no signs of any undigested matter.
I really mash it up when I check it too.
Since Tuesday my veiled has eaten six phoenix worms.
I'll keep checking the fecal matter.

-Brad

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Desert Dave asked about silk and goliath, or horn, worms earlier in the thread.
So far all I have found is:

Goliath worm: 68% protein, 20.7% fat

Silkworm: 64.7% protein, 20.8% fat, .21% cal, .54% phos, 5.74 kcal/gm

And yet another worm to consider:

Butterworm: 58.54% moisture, 1.04% ash, 16.20% protein, 5.21% fat, 42.90 mi/100grs Calcium

These stats are from various companies that sell these particular feeders.

-Brad

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Okay todays fecal assessment revealed one undigested phoenix worm.
As per Roo's experience it is possible that these do not get digested well and therefore would not fall into a beneficial category for me.
As stated yesterday Kitty had 6 so far and now 2 more today. I will keep examining poo. Perhaps some are being digested, but the one I found today was a pretty complete worm.
I'll keep you posted!
By the way Kitty is fine with being a lab rat in this particular experiment.

-Brad

 

[Will Hayward]

Perhaps the worm has a coating on it that the chameleons stomach acid will not disolve. If pricked with a pin before feeding, I'm sure it would be digested. But you are not finding them all undigested because many times the reptile will bite them and break the skin. However since they are so tiny, many of them will pass un-bitten down into the stomach of larger chameleons.

This method was suggested in Linda J. Davidson's book under the paragraph detailing maggots as feeders.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Interesting Will.
Thank you for adding that info.
I will experiment with this and see what happens. I would really love to use these worms as a natural source of calcium and protein.
In our efforts to expand the variety of feeders we offer it's so great when something this beneficial works.
My experiment continues............

-Brad

 

[Will Hayward]

Im confident that all worms pricked will be digested, and those that are not chewed will appear once more to you. The dilemma is that once pricked, the worms won't wriggle much longer.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Fecal checks of the last two days have revealed no more undigested phoenix worms and he is eating them.
At this point I have to assume that Will's theory is a good one, although I admit I have not actually pierced a worm yet, I believe that most of the time Kitty is crunching them well enough to break the skin himself.
I am going to keep observing fecal matter for the next few days but I'm pretty sure this will be an added staple feeder here.

-Brad

 

[jleahl]

Interesting idea, that they have to chew to break the skin. My brevs actually won't look at phoenix worms; guess they're not fast enough for them. Stripe won't even look at silkies! Picky boy! But the gecko LOVES phoenix worms, and the frogs do too; but I know the frogs don't chew anything, so I wonder if they're doing them any good?

 

[Creampuff]

Concerning phoenix worms my friend has a chameleon that doesnt want to eat them but the crickets do. So would one consider if the crickets eat the phoenix worm and the chameleon eats the cricket the chameleon would get some of that calcium too?