Plants

[Ares05]

I knew chams shouldn't eat alot of pothos, but I was under the impression it was safe?

I also thought croton was safe to a certain degree? Its on several safe plant lists, including ours.. I don't personally use it, I just find this interesting.

 

[cyberlocc]

I knew chams shouldn't eat alot of pothos, but I was under the impression it was safe?

I also thought croton was safe to a certain degree? Its on several safe plant lists, including ours.. I don't personally use it, I just find this interesting.

Depends on the type of Croton.

Alot, most of Croton is Euphorbia, most of that genus is toxic. Mildy, it's a genus of succlents it's that white milky substance that is the issue.

its completely fine, as far as the leaves, and touching it goes. It's the white stuff that is an issue. So if it gets eaten, or a branch breaks, and it excretes that white stuff.

Again mildly toxic, not severely. However some Toxic is in the ricin family, and they produce caster bean seeds, which produce ricin. There is another family that is also severely toxic, I forget the name, starts with a J. Also very toxic, not as bad as ricin.

 

[Molly1443]

Pothos is also toxic.

Ivy is toxic to cats and dogs, not to Birds. Reptiles are more in with Bird toxicity than cats and dogs.

Do you have an article about Ivy toxicity to Herps? I can never find one.

Never heard of a Cham eating ivy directly. But plenty of people feed their sticks ivy, and then feed the sticks to Chams with no Ill effects.

Also, according to the most complete and tested list I have seen for reptiles and plants. Pothos and English Ivy, cause the exact same minimally toxic results.

Diarrhea on ingestion, calcium blocking issues and Dermatitis when touched.

https://ourreptileforum.com/community/threads/toxic-plants.916/

So as you can see, Pothos v English Ivy, same degree of toxicity, same symptoms. Why Ivy gets a bad rap and not Pothos. I will never know, I guess wrap it up to the same reason alot in our hobby does. Telephone effect, and parroting of wrong information for ages.

Which is why I do what I do, I know you have commented about it, twice now. I'm not trying to be rude. I just lack tact, and am the misinformation police . To try and stop, the further spread of bad info, that has been spread for years, one piece at a time .

Pothos is « toxic » mainly because it contains calcium oxalates, but so do many leafy greens. We still eat those.
I would add to this thatwe should define what « toxic » is really. I never had any issues with pothos, not in my 6 cham cages, or with my cat eating it, or me touching it.
Now for the ivy, there is a lot of ivys out there and some cause really bad rashes, so that’s why I didn’t suggest its use.
Alot of plants are « purifying » plants.
They absorb the bad things, and, in this way, can be toxic when ingested.
Should we give that much thoughts into that. IMO it’s too much.
Its my field of study and you’re a pain honestly. But I respect the fact that you care a lot.

 

[Molly1443]

I would add also!
That chams are insectivores, not herbivores!
It looks less important now.
AND also, STUDIES (i’ll link later) were made and vegetable maters found in some chams was not entirely digested. They did not evolve to take in and digest all that plants contain.

 

[cyberlocc]

Pothos is « toxic » mainly because it contains calcium oxalates, but so do many leafy greens. We still eat those.

I just gave you a reptile centered link, that tells you why and how Pothos is toxic. Want a better one? Okay.

"Toxic Principle
Allergic reactions; Oxalic acid; Entire plant; Proteolytic enzymes; Calcium oxalate crystals

Clinical Signs
Vomiting; Diarrhea; Redness and swelling; Dermatitis; Itching and burning of lips, tongue, mouth, throat"

https://tamu.libguides.com/IEATPLANTS/Toxic

You used Pothos and its been fine? Ya, thats great, I stated that before. Its minimally toxic, will it be fine, yes most likely the Chameleon would have to eat large amounts to pose any real risk. However, my comment was the same applies to Hedera helix. Which again is MILDLY Toxic, and will pose no real danger.

Did you see anyone say do not use the Pothos? Or that Pothos would not be fine? Or was it said, that Hedera helix was also fine.

I would add to this that we should define what « toxic » is really. I never had any issues with pothos, not in my 6 cham cages, or with my cat eating it, or me touching it.

Sure, but we already did, Pothos is Mildly toxic, its fine to use, if the Cham is eating alot of it may be a good idea to remove it. In small quantities its largely okay. However the same applies to Hedera helix. Also again, tons of members here have fed their Indian Sticks strictly ivy diet, and fed said sticks to their Chameleon, with no issues.

Now for the ivy, there is a lot of ivys out there and some cause really bad rashes, so that’s why I didn’t suggest its use.

Thats true, there is many types of Ivy, and some are bad. However we were not talking about those Ivys, you did not say those Ivys, and you will not find those Ivys at Home Depot for sale. We were talking about Hedera helix, which is mildly toxic, just like Pothos. To suggest one and demonize the other, is absurd.

Alot of plants are « purifying » plants.
They absorb the bad things, and, in this way, can be toxic when ingested.

Oh you mean like Pothos, Dracaena, Spider Plant, Arcea Palm, Boston Fern, I could go on. All safe plants list, all except Pothos not on the list I linked. Why, because that is a different topic, and has zero to do with this one...

Should we give that much thoughts into that. IMO it’s too much.

First off, (skipping a head a bit) you as this is your field should know, the plants utilize the toxins they clean from the air not store it. So no that does not make them toxic, nor was that the subject here.

Its my field of study

Horticulture effects on Reptiles is your Field of Study? Honestly did not even know that was a field of study, what is it called? Also not sure, what your Field of Study, has to do with the statements of Fallacy. Your field of study does not make you right, especially when there has already been links, and info showing your are not.

If you have a peer reviewed link, showing your case I would love to see it. What you think, is of ZERO observance to me, I deal in facts not opinions. This is Science, there is no room for Emotions, or baseless thoughts. If you have evidence, I would gladly look at it.

and you’re a pain honestly. But I respect the fact that you care a lot.

People that spread information that in turn spreads like wildfire are a Pain TBH, but I get it. They cant be bothered to check the "facts" they spew, or accept when they are wrong.

Your information was incorrect, I pointed it out. The End, you dont like your information being corrected, then do yourself before posting it. Check your "Facts" before you state them, do not expect for fallacy's to fly past and not be corrected.

At the very least, reword your statements as opinions of theories. "I think Hedera helix might pose issues", then you wont be bluntly corrected, just told that is not the case. Maybe that will lower your emotional response to what you feel is attack on you, when really was just a course correction of a fallacy.

Every time these supposed "attacks" that make me a "Pain" to you, have happened is because you are providing wrong information. I provide you with Why its wrong, and Links that verify its inaccuracies. That is how good information is in turn exchanged for the bad. I am not attacking you as a person, at all. I am attacking your data, its wrong, here is the right data.

I would add also!
That chams are insectivores, not herbivores!
It looks less important now.
AND also, STUDIES (i’ll link later) were made and vegetable maters found in some chams was not entirely digested. They did not evolve to take in and digest all that plants contain.

Do not need the link, I am well aware thanks. That has what to do with the thread exactly? It doesn't have to be entirely ingested to be toxic.

 

[kinyonga]

Just wanted to say that over the years I have had quite a few veiled chameleon females strip every single leaf off a large pothos plant and be just fine.

I've never used ivy so I don't know what to say about it.

Also while I'm certain that chameleons are not herbivores/"vegan" I'm not so sure that some of them aren't somewhat omnivorous rather than being strict insectivores...and many are not just strict insectivores either...some eat "meat" (lizards, etc.).

Why do veiled females eat all the leaves from the pothos if they are strict insectivores. BTW I have never seen big pieces of leaves in their feces...why not if they can't digest vegetation?

Maybe you'll find this interesting...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/chameleon-herbivory.2426/

 

[cyberlocc]

Just wanted to say that over the years I have had quite a few veiled chameleon females strip every single leaf off a large pothos plant and be just fine.

I've never used ivy so I don't know what to say about it.

Well, same applies to all life forms, or at least most.

Lots of Things that we humans eat are toxic for us, which was kind of the point. I think a lot of "That Plant Is toxic" is overblown as a whole, that is what I was trying to get at by stating the Pothos is also toxic. Which is why I said in the above post, where did I ever say to pull it? I did say pull the croton, due to the risk of it being a ricin species, never said pull the pothos. I know a few keepers, that have Tons of Euphorbia in their cages, they know the risks, and know when it is an issue, and are watchful. Thats all that really matters.

We should not really be concerned with toxic vs nontoxic, as much as levels of Toxicity.

Pothos and Ivy, are fine. There is no risk of death, and if the Cham doesn't like the stomach ache, they may or may not get than they will no longer eat it. That doesn't mean, lets plant some Belladonna (which oddly is listed as safe on that reptile list, then later all Nightshade is listed as very toxic lol, I doubt many would plant it anyway, but I would love some if it is safe)



Also to be fair to Molly, if you look back to 2015/2016 and before, there is most likely posts from me saying Ivy was toxic too, for the same reasons she is. I was showed differently, and shown links and data, and experience of people that did use Ivy, that there is no issue with Ivy.

So I have defiantly contributed to the wrong assumption that Ivy is an issue, however now I know better, and am trying to share that with everyone else, with links to show why, and bringing up that lots of folks feed Ivy indirectly through their sticks.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

So Pothos is toxic? She has been eating her Pothos plant and croton plant too.
I wanted to add more plant variety for her to make it look more green since in some spaces she’s lacks coverage. She feels more comfortable all the way to the top in a corner where the larger Pothos covers.

Yes Pothos have a very low Toxicity level . So with high ingestion or with a low immunity they could be an issue . Many many use them with no issues ( or we do not think so ) . I use them with the exception of one of my girls whom is a huge plant eater . Better safe then sorry . @cyberlocc as always thank you for the links !!.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

Well, same applies to all life forms, or at least most.

Lots of Things that we humans eat are toxic for us, which was kind of the point. I think a lot of "That Plant Is toxic" is overblown as a whole, that is what I was trying to get at by stating the Pothos is also toxic. Which is why I said in the above post, where did I ever say to pull it? I did say pull the croton, due to the risk of it being a ricin species, never said pull the pothos. I know a few keepers, that have Tons of Euphorbia in their cages, they know the risks, and know when it is an issue, and are watchful. Thats all that really matters.

We should not really be concerned with toxic vs nontoxic, as much as levels of Toxicity.

Pothos and Ivy, are fine. There is no risk of death, and if the Cham doesn't like the stomach ache, they may or may not get than they will no longer eat it. That doesn't mean, lets plant some Belladonna (which oddly is listed as safe on that reptile list, then later all Nightshade is listed as very toxic lol, I doubt many would plant it anyway, but I would love some if it is safe)



Also to be fair to Molly, if you look back to 2015/2016 and before, there is most likely posts from me saying Ivy was toxic too, for the same reasons she is. I was showed differently, and shown links and data, and experience of people that did use Ivy, that there is no issue with Ivy.

So I have defiantly contributed to the wrong assumption that Ivy is an issue, however now I know better, and am trying to share that with everyone else, with links to show why, and bringing up that lots of folks feed Ivy indirectly through their sticks.

This also bring up how many of the Chams we see sick , can’t figure out why is do to potho’s ??. It would be a great study case .

 

[GoodKarma19]

We should not really be concerned with toxic vs nontoxic, as much as levels of Toxicity.

Amen!

I use all sorts of "toxic" plants. If it becomes a problem, I'll deal with it then. Lily (panther) doesn't touch her plants (though she's really taken to licking moss!), and Kismet (veiled) has taken exactly 4 bites out of her Brazil philodendron, and left everything else alone so far. I check my plants daily for damage, because I'm neurotic like that, and adjust as needed.

I do my due diligence and check toxicity levels before adding new plants. Specifically, if something is listed as "toxic" I look for the exact reason, and check on bird safe plant lists (great tip @cyberlocc!). If it's just oxalate crystals, I'm perfectly comfortable adding the plant. If it has irritating sap or "true" toxins, then I tend to take a pass.

 

[Molly1443]

I just gave you a reptile centered link, that tells you why and how Pothos is toxic. Want a better one? Okay.

"Toxic Principle
Allergic reactions; Oxalic acid; Entire plant; Proteolytic enzymes; Calcium oxalate crystals

Clinical Signs
Vomiting; Diarrhea; Redness and swelling; Dermatitis; Itching and burning of lips, tongue, mouth, throat"

https://tamu.libguides.com/IEATPLANTS/Toxic

You used Pothos and its been fine? Ya, thats great, I stated that before. Its minimally toxic, will it be fine, yes most likely the Chameleon would have to eat large amounts to pose any real risk. However, my comment was the same applies to Hedera helix. Which again is MILDLY Toxic, and will pose no real danger.

Did you see anyone say do not use the Pothos? Or that Pothos would not be fine? Or was it said, that Hedera helix was also fine.


Sure, but we already did, Pothos is Mildly toxic, its fine to use, if the Cham is eating alot of it may be a good idea to remove it. In small quantities its largely okay. However the same applies to Hedera helix. Also again, tons of members here have fed their Indian Sticks strictly ivy diet, and fed said sticks to their Chameleon, with no issues.


Thats true, there is many types of Ivy, and some are bad. However we were not talking about those Ivys, you did not say those Ivys, and you will not find those Ivys at Home Depot for sale. We were talking about Hedera helix, which is mildly toxic, just like Pothos. To suggest one and demonize the other, is absurd.


Oh you mean like Pothos, Dracaena, Spider Plant, Arcea Palm, Boston Fern, I could go on. All safe plants list, all except Pothos not on the list I linked. Why, because that is a different topic, and has zero to do with this one...


First off, (skipping a head a bit) you as this is your field should know, the plants utilize the toxins they clean from the air not store it. So no that does not make them toxic, nor was that the subject here.


Horticulture effects on Reptiles is your Field of Study? Honestly did not even know that was a field of study, what is it called? Also not sure, what your Field of Study, has to do with the statements of Fallacy. Your field of study does not make you right, especially when there has already been links, and info showing your are not.

If you have a peer reviewed link, showing your case I would love to see it. What you think, is of ZERO observance to me, I deal in facts not opinions. This is Science, there is no room for Emotions, or baseless thoughts. If you have evidence, I would gladly look at it.


People that spread information that in turn spreads like wildfire are a Pain TBH, but I get it. They cant be bothered to check the "facts" they spew, or accept when they are wrong.

Your information was incorrect, I pointed it out. The End, you dont like your information being corrected, then do yourself before posting it. Check your "Facts" before you state them, do not expect for fallacy's to fly past and not be corrected.

At the very least, reword your statements as opinions of theories. "I think Hedera helix might pose issues", then you wont be bluntly corrected, just told that is not the case. Maybe that will lower your emotional response to what you feel is attack on you, when really was just a course correction of a fallacy.

Every time these supposed "attacks" that make me a "Pain" to you, have happened is because you are providing wrong information. I provide you with Why its wrong, and Links that verify its inaccuracies. That is how good information is in turn exchanged for the bad. I am not attacking you as a person, at all. I am attacking your data, its wrong, here is the right data.





Do not need the link, I am well aware thanks. That has what to do with the thread exactly? It doesn't have to be entirely ingested to be toxic.

I was just trying to end that conversation with a bit of humor.
Again, I know i’m out topic and I was wrong to suggest pothos. I am sorry.

I just gave you a reptile centered link, that tells you why and how Pothos is toxic. Want a better one? Okay.

"Toxic Principle
Allergic reactions; Oxalic acid; Entire plant; Proteolytic enzymes; Calcium oxalate crystals

Clinical Signs
Vomiting; Diarrhea; Redness and swelling; Dermatitis; Itching and burning of lips, tongue, mouth, throat"

https://tamu.libguides.com/IEATPLANTS/Toxic

You used Pothos and its been fine? Ya, thats great, I stated that before. Its minimally toxic, will it be fine, yes most likely the Chameleon would have to eat large amounts to pose any real risk. However, my comment was the same applies to Hedera helix. Which again is MILDLY Toxic, and will pose no real danger.

Did you see anyone say do not use the Pothos? Or that Pothos would not be fine? Or was it said, that Hedera helix was also fine.


Sure, but we already did, Pothos is Mildly toxic, its fine to use, if the Cham is eating alot of it may be a good idea to remove it. In small quantities its largely okay. However the same applies to Hedera helix. Also again, tons of members here have fed their Indian Sticks strictly ivy diet, and fed said sticks to their Chameleon, with no issues.


Thats true, there is many types of Ivy, and some are bad. However we were not talking about those Ivys, you did not say those Ivys, and you will not find those Ivys at Home Depot for sale. We were talking about Hedera helix, which is mildly toxic, just like Pothos. To suggest one and demonize the other, is absurd.


Oh you mean like Pothos, Dracaena, Spider Plant, Arcea Palm, Boston Fern, I could go on. All safe plants list, all except Pothos not on the list I linked. Why, because that is a different topic, and has zero to do with this one...


First off, (skipping a head a bit) you as this is your field should know, the plants utilize the toxins they clean from the air not store it. So no that does not make them toxic, nor was that the subject here.


Horticulture effects on Reptiles is your Field of Study? Honestly did not even know that was a field of study, what is it called? Also not sure, what your Field of Study, has to do with the statements of Fallacy. Your field of study does not make you right, especially when there has already been links, and info showing your are not.

If you have a peer reviewed link, showing your case I would love to see it. What you think, is of ZERO observance to me, I deal in facts not opinions. This is Science, there is no room for Emotions, or baseless thoughts. If you have evidence, I would gladly look at it.


People that spread information that in turn spreads like wildfire are a Pain TBH, but I get it. They cant be bothered to check the "facts" they spew, or accept when they are wrong.

Your information was incorrect, I pointed it out. The End, you dont like your information being corrected, then do yourself before posting it. Check your "Facts" before you state them, do not expect for fallacy's to fly past and not be corrected.

At the very least, reword your statements as opinions of theories. "I think Hedera helix might pose issues", then you wont be bluntly corrected, just told that is not the case. Maybe that will lower your emotional response to what you feel is attack on you, when really was just a course correction of a fallacy.

Every time these supposed "attacks" that make me a "Pain" to you, have happened is because you are providing wrong information. I provide you with Why its wrong, and Links that verify its inaccuracies. That is how good information is in turn exchanged for the bad. I am not attacking you as a person, at all. I am attacking your data, its wrong, here is the right data.





Do not need the link, I am well aware thanks. That has what to do with the thread exactly? It doesn't have to be entirely ingested to be toxic.

I understand.
English is not my first language.
I do what I can.
I am not being helpful I get it. I will indeed be very careful with the « facts » in the future or I won’t say anything.
Sorry for that

 

[cyberlocc]

I was just trying to end that conversation with a bit of humor.
Again, I know i’m out topic and I was wrong to suggest pothos. I am sorry.

I understand.
English is not my first language.
I do what I can.
I am not being helpful I get it. I will indeed be very careful with the « facts » in the future or I won’t say anything.
Sorry for that

?? I never said pothos was a bad suggestion.

You said Ivy, in particular English Ivy, Hedera helix would be toxic.

I asked you for a link that made you think that, said I use to as well, I have since found that its really not. More so misunderstood, like Pothos.

 

[Molly1443]

?? I never said pothos was a bad suggestion.

You said Ivy, in particular English Ivy, Hedera helix would be toxic.

I asked you for a link that made you think that, said I use to as well, I have since found that its really not. More so misunderstood, like Pothos.

I mean ivy

 

[cyberlocc]

Amen!

I use all sorts of "toxic" plants. If it becomes a problem, I'll deal with it then. Lily (panther) doesn't touch her plants (though she's really taken to licking moss!), and Kismet (veiled) has taken exactly 4 bites out of her Brazil philodendron, and left everything else alone so far. I check my plants daily for damage, because I'm neurotic like that, and adjust as needed.

I do my due diligence and check toxicity levels before adding new plants. Specifically, if something is listed as "toxic" I look for the exact reason, and check on bird safe plant lists (great tip @cyberlocc!). If it's just oxalate crystals, I'm perfectly comfortable adding the plant. If it has irritating sap or "true" toxins, then I tend to take a pass.

Im actually amazed that site for reptiles, lists Belladonna as Not Toxic! But does list nightshade (all) as moderately toxic.

I would really like a cage with some Belladonna, its SO GORGEOUS. But that just cant be right, there is no way lol.


Ya nevermind lol, this site agrees, No GO. https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=230&c=6


the Flowers are SOOO PRETTY THOUGH .

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

I was just trying to end that conversation with a bit of humor.
Again, I know i’m out topic and I was wrong to suggest pothos. I am sorry.

I understand.
English is not my first language.
I do what I can.
I am not being helpful I get it. I will indeed be very careful with the « facts » in the future or I won’t say anything.
Sorry for that

@Molly1443 I don’t want to speak for anyone . I think @cyberlocc was giving criteria , he will also give links to back what he’s saying . Was only asking you to provide the same maybe we all might learn something new . Technically Potho’s are toxic at a low level . They can be used and are widely with keeping , they are on the safe list . . If one had a plant stripper and seems to have some issues that are not do to husbandry maybe plants can be looked into .

 

[GoodKarma19]

Im actually amazed that site for reptiles, lists Belladonna as Not Toxic! But does list nightshade (all) as moderately toxic.

I would really like a cage with some Belladonna, its SO GORGEOUS. But that just cant be right, there is no way lol.

Wait what? It lists Belladonna as not toxic, but all the other members of the family as toxic? Wow. ?‍ That doesn't seem quite right, does it?

But I agree - it's an attractive plant!

 

[cyberlocc]

Wait what? It lists Belladonna as not toxic, but all the other members of the family as toxic? Wow. ?‍ That doesn't seem quite right, does it?

But I agree - it's an attractive plant!

Ya very weird. Belladonna is the Really toxic one lol.

Maybe there is some other plant called Belladonna that I don't know about.

 

[cyberlocc]

walter used ricin to poison jesse's gf's son brock

Lol, so with a lack of things to watch, I just started rewatching breaking bad, a few weeks ago.

Watching right now, and they just introduced Brock! I have forgot so much about the show, been so long lol.