Please Help

[gsurfn]

Hello everyone,

Crash is roughly a 5 month old panther chameleon. I have been working very long hours recently (im an accountant and it is tax season), so I have not really been able to keep a close eye on him until I get home at around 8 at night. I've just started noticing that when I get home he has been spending a lot of the time before the lights go off (lights are on a cycle at 10 am on 10 pm off) at the bottom of the cage. I have been checking his poops and his urates are completely white and he is not dehydrated.

He does still move around a lot but he will usually climb to the top of the cage, look around, and then go back down to the bottom (he is then a dark green at the bottom and his bars are brown). Is it possible that he is just very tired by this point in the day? I think he may be waking up before the lights come on and thus being more tired towards the end of the day. I think it could be that he is tired too because as soon as the lights go off he is asleep. Like within 2-3 minutes his eyes are closed and he turns more of a whitish color with reddish bars.

I think the cage I have for him may be getting kind of small. He is currently (roughly) in a 20 in wide, 22 in high, 10 in deep tank. I have just purchased a 24x24x48 and should have it in a couple of days. I spray the cage in the morning before I leave for work at 7 and then spray again at 8 when I get home, and have the dripper running constantly. As far as lighting and heating I have a 40 watt basking bulb along with a 18 in 5.0 reptisun uvb bulb. He has still been eating like a fiend. Consuming well over 12 crickets a day, and will always eat however many phoenix worms I put in there. I have been gutloading my crickets with fluker's cricket food (the orange cubes and brown powdery food) and throwing in some live veggies every once and a while such as lettuce/carrots. I have just started dusting my crickets with reptivite with D3 (i was just dusting them before with a calcium & d3 supplement) and occasionally spraying the crickets with the zilla vitamin spray. Any thoughts?

Also, where he is located in the picture is where he seems to sleep every night. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks!

 

[SpinyFranky]

Hello everyone,

Crash is roughly a 5 month old panther chameleon. I have been working very long hours recently (im an accountant and it is tax season), so I have not really been able to keep a close eye on him until I get home at around 8 at night. I've just started noticing that when I get home he has been spending a lot of the time before the lights go off (lights are on a cycle at 10 am on 10 pm off) at the bottom of the cage. I have been checking his poops and his urates are completely white and he is not dehydrated.

He does still move around a lot but he will usually climb to the top of the cage, look around, and then go back down to the bottom (he is then a dark green at the bottom and his bars are brown). Is it possible that he is just very tired by this point in the day? I think he may be waking up before the lights come on and thus being more tired towards the end of the day. I think it could be that he is tired too because as soon as the lights go off he is asleep. Like within 2-3 minutes his eyes are closed and he turns more of a whitish color with reddish bars.

I think the cage I have for him may be getting kind of small. He is currently (roughly) in a 20 in wide, 22 in high, 10 in deep tank. I have just purchased a 24x24x48 and should have it in a couple of days. I spray the cage in the morning before I leave for work at 7 and then spray again at 8 when I get home, and have the dripper running constantly. As far as lighting and heating I have a 40 watt basking bulb along with a 18 in 5.0 reptisun uvb bulb. He has still been eating like a fiend. Consuming well over 12 crickets a day, and will always eat however many phoenix worms I put in there. I have been gutloading my crickets with fluker's cricket food (the orange cubes and brown powdery food) and throwing in some live veggies every once and a while such as lettuce/carrots. I have just started dusting my crickets with reptivite with D3 (i was just dusting them before with a calcium & d3 supplement) and occasionally spraying the crickets with the zilla vitamin spray. Any thoughts?

Also, where he is located in the picture is where he seems to sleep every night. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks!

One of my panthers ( of similar age to yours ) does the same thing.

Though I must admit I turn my lights on at 8 am and they go out at 8 pm. If they go out any later than that my little one will go low in the cage and try to rest a little. The older ones don't really mind it though, they usually just bask or hit the sleeping spot.

Your gutloading needs some work - those flukers cubes... while good aren't great. If anything they should be supplementary to your gutload, not the main source.

Good on the eating part though.

I have questions - whats the basking temperature? whats the ambient temperature? are you supplementing your feeders with powders on an appropriate schedule?

If temps are too low and hese eating a lot, the metabolism slows down and the food takes longer to digest - which probably can be tiring him out during the day. Ideally proper temperatures are one of the first steps for a healthy reptile ( along with diet, housing, and other lighting ).

Next - Poop:

have you seen any of his poops? what do they look like? ever see any undigested food in them? ( perhaps a cricket body part or something ) whats the urate look like?

S.F

 

[SpinyFranky]

wait wait wait....


I just looked at your pictures....

is that blue bulb on during the night?

we might have the answer right there.

 

[renzo0684]

Couple things first follow this dusting schedule

Mon-Fri dust with calcium
Sat- do not dust
Sun- Alternate calcium with D3 and a multivitamin



Second I would get him a bigger cage he is ready for a big boy cage...


there maybe some more going on how about you fill out the ask for help form and we can see whats goin on =]

 

[gsurfn]

That blue light is actually not on at all anymore. I used to have the blue day glo bulb and the basking bulb running in the day time (10 am to 10 pm), but I thought it was too much. Please correct me if I am wrong. Basking site is roughly around 80 degrees. Middle of the cage is about 75, and near the bottom is 70.

 

[SpinyFranky]

That blue light is actually not on at all anymore. I used to have the blue day glo bulb and the basking bulb running in the day time (10 am to 10 pm), but I thought it was too much. Please correct me if I am wrong. Basking site is roughly around 80 degrees. Middle of the cage is about 75, and near the bottom is 70.

What are you using the measure the temperatures?

no no, taking the blue bulb was good

it would only serve to annoy the chameleon in the long run. And if used during the night would prevent it from sleeping.

80F is ok.... Ideally I would say a panther Juvi is best at 83-85F I keep my adults at around 86-88F.

It might be a good idea to alter the timers, to turn on earlier and turn off earlier as well. When the sun Rises they go on, when it sets they go off.

Still aim for about 12 hours of light daily. But if you lights go off when its late, and turn on late in the morning - that could be a possible explanation for a sleepy cham.

Any light in the room is enough to wake them up, so just because your cage lights are on at 10, does not mean he could not be up at say 8? if you get what im saying. And if he is up at 8, and goes to be at 10 - then obviously he is sorta exhausted - which can lead to him napping during the day.

While its a potential mistake in the making, its not the worst mistake you could have made, so never feel bad.

a sleep nap is much better than a say "im so dehydrated I can't go on" nap, if you get what im saying. Though ideally there is no nap at all.

S.F

 

[renzo0684]

What are you using the measure the temperatures?

no no, taking the blue bulb was good

it would only serve to annoy the chameleon in the long run. And if used during the night would prevent it from sleeping.

80F is ok.... Ideally I would say a panther Juvi is best at 83-85F I keep my adults at around 86-88F.

It might be a good idea to alter the timers, to turn on earlier and turn off earlier as well. When the sun Rises they go on, when it sets they go off.

Still aim for about 12 hours of light daily. But if you lights go off when its late, and turn on late in the morning - that could be a possible explanation for a sleepy cham.

Any light in the room is enough to wake them up, so just because your cage lights are on at 10, does not mean he could not be up at say 8? if you get what im saying. And if he is up at 8, and goes to be at 10 - then obviously he is sorta exhausted - which can lead to him napping during the day.

While its a potential mistake in the making, its not the worst mistake you could have made, so never feel bad.

a sleep nap is much better than a say "im so dehydrated I can't go on" nap, if you get what im saying. Though ideally there is no nap at all.

S.F

I have to agree change the timers I have mine now from 730 to 730... I will keep the light on longer as the days get longer...

 

[gsurfn]

As I was taking pictures for this post I noticed him getting fired up so I snapped a shot. This is the first time I have seen him display colors like this.

 

[draetish]

Time your lights to come on with the sunrise and off when the sun sets and see if he stays off the bottom. Somehow, they know when the sun's up or down and they bed down early. If he does not get off the bottom, I'd say there is a problem. Keep a close eye on him as chams hide their illness well until it's critical. In the wild they do that so not to appear weak to predators.

 

[draetish]

As I was taking pictures for this post I noticed him getting fired up so I snapped a shot. This is the first time I have seen him display colors like this.

He's tired and that will wear him down. He's saying "back off buddy".

 

[gsurfn]

Wow, I just saw all the posts to this thread, thanks for all your responses. I completely agree with you all. I definitely have to change the timers because the room he is in gets light in it through the shades. It is just kind of disappointing because I won't get to see him for a month. I will be gone before his lights come on and home after his lights are off.

 

[gsurfn]

He does comes up off the bottom of the cage. I don't think he is staying there all day. He has to be moving around a decent amount to hunt down all the crickets he had been eating. I watched him for close to 2 hours when I got home today. He moved around a lot but kept going back to that one spot you see in the picture. I will actually get to watch him on Saturday and see what his daytime actions are like.

 

[renzo0684]

Just a question you said you arent gonna see him for a month... What are your plans on feeding him? Does he cup feed or do you free range?

 

[kinyonga]

I agree with the basking temperatures being raised a bit. I keep my male panthers' basking temperatures in the mid 80's. If he's eating as well as you said and pooping the lower temperatures can't be affecting his digestion much/at all though IMHO.

What is the temperature in his cage during the night?

Can you post another picture of his head please (so I can see the head pads)? (They look a little on the deflated side....but it might just be the photo.)

You said.."i was just dusting them before with a calcium & d3 supplement) and occasionally spraying the crickets with the zilla vitamin spray. Any thoughts?"...what brand of calcium/D3 supplement were you using and how often for it and the zilla vitamin spray? What's in them in the way of phos., vitamin A (acetate, palmitate, etc. or beta carotene?)? Is there any D3 in the zilla vitamin spray?

What's in the brown stuff you are feeding the crickets? As was said, your gutload/feed for the crickets could be improved. I use a wide variety of greens (dandelions, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, kale, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red peppers, zucchini, etc.).

 

[gsurfn]

The crickets are free range and the phoenix worms I cup feed.

I had been dusting my crickets about once a week with the calcium and d3 powder. I am not too sure about the stats on the zilla vitamin spray, I will look into that when I get home tonight. I read on the reptivite label that you should only dust 12 crickets a week..is this not true?

The supps I have are:

Zilla Vitamin Spray
Reptivite w/ D3
And a calcium w/ d3 powder (can't remember brand name)

I have raised the basking temperature and it is now about 85. I will get a picture of his head for you to look at when I get home tonight.

Looks like I am also going to have to change up my gutload. I thought that the fluker's cubes and dust (looks like saw dust almost) would be enough. I'll pick up some veggies tonight.

 

[renzo0684]

The crickets are free range and the phoenix worms I cup feed.

I had been dusting my crickets about once a week with the calcium and d3 powder. I am not too sure about the stats on the zilla vitamin spray, I will look into that when I get home tonight. I read on the reptivite label that you should only dust 12 crickets a week..is this not true?

The supps I have are:

Zilla Vitamin Spray
Reptivite w/ D3
And a calcium w/ d3 powder (can't remember brand name)

I have raised the basking temperature and it is now about 85. I will get a picture of his head for you to look at when I get home tonight.

Looks like I am also going to have to change up my gutload. I thought that the fluker's cubes and dust (looks like saw dust almost) would be enough. I'll pick up some veggies tonight.

You are using too much D3. Use this supp schedule
Mon-Fri: Calcium no D3
Sat: nothing
Sun: Alternate Calcium with D3 and a multivitamin no D3

Gutload with carrots, collard greens, stuff like that.

Start cup feeding with crickets if you are gonna be gone because if some are left over and you get home with the lights off a cricket will munch on a sleeping cham

EDIT--- Oh ya ditch the spray and get a multivitamin powder

 

[gsurfn]

The reptivite I have is a multivitamin and that has D3 in it as well. Basically I need to go out and buy a calcium supplement with no d3 in it.

I will follow your supplement schedule but can I still use the reptivite with d3? I just wasted 20 bucks on the the vitamin spray and the reptivite if I can't. Which would kind of piss me off.

 

[SpinyFranky]

The reptivite I have is a multivitamin and that has D3 in it as well. Basically I need to go out and buy a calcium supplement with no d3 in it.

I will follow your supplement schedule but can I still use the reptivite with d3? I just wasted 20 bucks on the the vitamin spray and the reptivite if I can't. Which would kind of piss me off.

Constant use of D3 can lead to a basic overdose.... which from my understanding can lead to Edemas ( correct me if im wrong ) and possible death.

While pure calcium is absorbed rather quickly, D3 takes quite a while longer, and thus builds up quickly if left unmonitored.

You should be using three powdered supplements, based on a proper schedule.

Even for a growing panther I would suggest - based on personal preference to use Vitamin and D3 powders only twice per month. One Sunday use D3, next sunday use multi Vite, Next Sunday D3, last Sunday repti vite.

As the animal matures, i would cut this down to just once a month for each supplement.

These supplements im linking are fairly inexpensve - however they are generally regarded as top quality. You could also buy in bulk ( by the pound ) and save even more.

http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog...cleaners/-/repcal-ultra-fine-calcium-with-d3/

http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog...d-cage-cleaners/-/rep-cal-calcium-without-d3/

http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog...-cleaners/-/zoo-med-reptivite-without-d3-2oz/

Proper use of these helps the animal to maintain a diet and lifestyle that it would encounter most commonly in its natural habitat - and thus promotes overall well being.

You would be surprised how many times we see chameleons come here with edemas from poor or over supplementation ( especially with Montanes ). Many times chameleons also come here with MBD from poor supplementation with D3 or calcium - or eye issues from poor use of the Multi Vitamin.

A chameleon is an exotic pet, and thus must be regarded with special care and attention, which everyone is obviously capable of - but not everyone is willing. They are more delicate than most other reptiles, and require a bit more specialized care than almost any other animal that I have ever dealt with. However the Joy of proper husbandry and sheer beauty of the animals makes it completely worth it to me....

Back to the topic - throw out the spray and your cricket cubes. The spray, since it contains D3 may be a potential overdose waiting to happen. The cricket cubes are ... well I have never seen the crickets even eat them, let alone benefit from them. Your so much better off with the three powdered supplements that I mentioned - and a fresh veggie gutload, its not even funny.

Start by gutloading with the following using alternation patterns to ensure a varied nutrition uptake.

:
Romaine Lettuce
Carrots
Mustard Greens
Sweet Potatoe
Honey
Yams
Dandelion
Endives

- This is a simplistic list, made of things commonly available in your kitchen or grocery store - others can chime in with even more variety - however I think that this list would be more than sufficient for a varied yet well balanced diet.
Don't forget that you can just use scraps to feed the feeders - no need to waste money and buy a head of romaine for just crickets - buy the romain and make a salad - give the spine of the lettuce to the crickets, or any left overs ( without dressing ) to them as well. You usually peel carrots before cooking, give the peelings to the crickets. Same with every thing listed above.

Of course you could also inquire about a dry gutload ( which may last a lot longer than fresh veggies ) - cricket crack is a great seller, and though I personally have not used it (yet) I have heard good things.

I know your gonna be mad, "Money!?!?! why is need spend???!!!"... but they are not cheap pets by any means...Just for my setups for three chams I have spent nearly $800 - not including the chamaleon itself - or the cost of feeders.

They are still worth it though, trust me.

Hope this helps~

S.F

 

[gsurfn]

Franky thank you for your informative post. After work I went and returned both the vitamin spray and the reptivite with d3. I picked up the reptivite without d3 and petco didn't have the calcium without d3 so I will be going to my local pet store in hopes to find it there.

I will definitely work on my cricket gut load. Looks like I am going to be having to buy more veggies!

 

[kinyonga]

Look at the reptivite bottle to see what form of vitamin A it has. If it has a prEformed source (palmitate, acetate, etc.) and not a beta carotene (prOformed) source you need to be careful with it...prEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job.

As long as the chameleon can move in and out of the UVB the D3 should not build up in the chameleon's system and create an overdose. Any D3 provided from supplements is ready to go (doesn't need to be converted) right away and it can build up in the system if used too often...so don't overdo supplements containing D3.

Vitamin A and D3 are somewhat antagonistic to each other and need to be in balance....
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html

Its important to dust with phos.-free calcium at most feedings no matter what the age of the chameleon to make up for the poor ratio of calcium to phos. found in most of the feeder insects we use.

If your chameleon continues to sit low in the cage and shows any other signs of declining, it should go to the vet to find out what is going on with it.