Pothos toxicity, what's up with it???

[cyberlocc]

I dont think this is the one, but it may have been.

This one color codes, safe to eat or not. It does however give a thorough overview of why the plant is toxic and what it can cause.

https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/a-z/?l=al

Edit. That was the one, they may be a little worse then us lol.

https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=805#.WMfHTBicZBw

Thats umbrella plant, they are saying toxic.

Parlor palm, toxic.
https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=906&c=5

I think really it kind of comes down to everything is toxic if you look hard enough or want it to be. Also there is the fact that in certain amounts its toxic. Even water is toxic if you drink too much.

 

[jamest0o0]

Bear in mind these lists were written for mammals and birds, back in the dark ages where reptile keeping was an afterthought.

What causes toxicity issues for mammals won't phase a bird or reptile, in most cases. And plants that mammals and birds can handle will cause issues for reptiles. (Spinach/kale)

What we need are actual studies in which reptiles are forced to ingest certain plants to see what causes issues for them and them alone.

Case and point, poison ivy berries are highly toxic to mammals, but birds, especially downy woodpeckers eat them right up.

I dont think this is the one, but it may have been.

This one color codes, safe to eat or not. It does however give a thorough overview of why the plant is toxic and what it can cause.

https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/a-z/?l=al

Edit. That was the one, they may be a little worse then us lol.

https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=805#.WMfHTBicZBw

Thats umbrella plant, they are saying toxic.

Parlor palm, toxic.
https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=906&c=5

I think really it kind of comes down to everything is toxic if you look hard enough or want it to be. Also there is the fact that in certain amounts its toxic. Even water is toxic if you drink too much.

No offense guys, but this wasn't really what I was getting at. What @kinyonga shared was more along the lines. With how the oxalates are "bound". The level of toxicity and mammal vs reptile plant safety has been beaten into the ground before.

What gets me is why avoid foods with oxalates or avoid certain plants, but not others. It's an issue of advice given and misunderstanding. That's why I said bring up the toxin, not the plant(which @cyberlocc you pointed out for tortoises). Oxalate crystals should have a physical sensation of burning, it's not like a chemical that some things are just immune to. Unless chams do not feel it or have thicker membranes?? On the other hand, spinach I'm guessing has the "unbound" oxalates that interfere with calcium absorption. So this explains a lot. So maybe we should just say all plants that contain oxalate crystals are not known to harm chams.

 

[jamest0o0]

Sorry if I worded this all confusingly. It'a hard to text and think straight with crazy toddlers

 

[JoXie411]

Found it...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/pothos.974/

Great read as always thanks

 

[JacksJill]

Oops wrong thread

 

[CasqueAbove]

So you touched on “building up “. I have felt like there may be something to that. There does seem to be a missing piece to longevity.

 

[kinyonga]

@jamest0o0 said..."So maybe we should just say all plants that contain oxalate crystals are not known to harm chams"...that might be unsafe to assume....there might be other things in plants that contain oxalates that will harm a chameleon.

Spinach has some bound oxalates and some unbound which might be why it's not advised.

 

[Cheryl ringler]

So one thing that nags me about the info given on these forums is that you will see people recommend pothos constantly, but then tell you another plant, with the same defense as pothos, is toxic. Would like to hear from anyone that knows a bit about plant toxins. I admit, I'm no expert on the subject, just a simple understanding. So pothos basically have oxalate crystals which are like tiny pieces of glass. My thinking is that chams digest so little of the leaf that they don't actually get much of this to irritate them. Oddly, cats are bothered by it and I do not think they digest much, if any, vegetation either. Very big leap between cat and chameleon, but just a thought. High oxalates are a reason people say to stay away from spinach as a gutload, but I guess in that sense, they may get more of them due to the insect processing the plant material. Oxalates can also interfere with calcium absorption, create gout like crystals, and kidney issues.

So I'd just like to discuss this if anyone's interested or if I'm missing something here... maybe we should stop saying 'this plant is toxic, this plant isn't' and start saying this particular toxin is dangerous to chams or this one isn't. It's not hard to Google what toxin a plant actually has.

I'm not trying to pick on anyone here. I've done this, and so many others have, but now it drives me crazy because I feel it is one of those things we're all just repeating without understanding.

@PetNcs says veileds should live 12 years... how are most veileds that are kept otherwise healthy dying before then? It's a longshot, but could longterm high oxalate plant leaves be slowly hurting their overall health as well as obesity and overfeeding?

Sorry , So very new to this forum, still trying to navigate how this works
Blows my mind that this question showed up today , I just had to euthanize my Jackson today for kidney damage and severe gout . He had been well, then after switching him to a new enclosure that contained a large hanging pothos , he became ill over last several months . Coincidence ??

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

This thread is a neat read. I have had similar questions about keeping a semi toxic plant with chameleons. However the chameleons I have kept, multiple chameleon species with pothos, all have done very well. Veiled Chameleons were the only reputable plant eaters though. The topic is something to keep in mind always. There is another extremely popular plant Ficus benjamina that has latex in its sap. That can cause a toxic reaction to whatever comes in contact with it that is allergic to latex. When consumed by individuals that are allergic to latex, ingested of parts of plants leads to nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea (Wikipedia, 2020). Although it has been a long time since I kept Veiled Chameleons I have seen the individuals I have had almost stripped a ficus in front of me. There are reports that people that are allergic to latex have reactions just from handling Ficus plants. Chameleon keepers have used Ficus benjamani as a plants to be kept with chameleons often and in the hobby for a long time.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Kaizen]

Right, I agree with this, but I'm more so wondering why some things are safe, some things aren't and pointing out maybe we should be more consistent with our advice. Or maybe we aren't seeing the signs of damage it causes. I've sworn off those plant lists for a while now lol.

That is a good question, and I don’t know whether I can add anything helpful here. However, I think the point that long-term exposure might be causing problems is a good one.

 

[PetNcs]

So one thing that nags me about the info given on these forums is that you will see people recommend pothos constantly, but then tell you another plant, with the same defense as pothos, is toxic. Would like to hear from anyone that knows a bit about plant toxins. I admit, I'm no expert on the subject, just a simple understanding. So pothos basically have oxalate crystals which are like tiny pieces of glass. My thinking is that chams digest so little of the leaf that they don't actually get much of this to irritate them. Oddly, cats are bothered by it and I do not think they digest much, if any, vegetation either. Very big leap between cat and chameleon, but just a thought. High oxalates are a reason people say to stay away from spinach as a gutload, but I guess in that sense, they may get more of them due to the insect processing the plant material. Oxalates can also interfere with calcium absorption, create gout like crystals, and kidney issues.

So I'd just like to discuss this if anyone's interested or if I'm missing something here... maybe we should stop saying 'this plant is toxic, this plant isn't' and start saying this particular toxin is dangerous to chams or this one isn't. It's not hard to Google what toxin a plant actually has.

I'm not trying to pick on anyone here. I've done this, and so many others have, but now it drives me crazy because I feel it is one of those things we're all just repeating without understanding.

@PetNcs says veileds should live 12 years... how are most veileds that are kept otherwise healthy dying before then? It's a longshot, but could longterm high oxalate plant leaves be slowly hurting their overall health as well as obesity and overfeeding?

my Yemen chameleons reached 12 years with pothos and weeping fig intermittw tly and almost permanently in their cages.
but it means nothing
maybe they could have lived 16 years

IMHO these plants have low to none toxicity for chameleons, taking into consideration the ammounts of leaves consumed by them. But this is only guess and no scientific proof. There is no research, we could base on our decision whether to recommend it or not. So, the debate is actually relatively pointless though of course the question is valid.

so, we have two options:
1. If we go by scientific evidence:
In doubt, go safe, means abscond from using
This is the only rule in this situation to be rigorous

2. if we go by indirect evidence,
Then they seem to be harmless and I would not advice against them

moreover, out of 9 soecies of ficus, native in Yemen and buildin oartly the biotopes of Yemen xhameleons, 5 soecies belong to same subgenus and 3 are extremely similar to F. Benjamini, so the exposure of C. calyptratus to Ficus is natural and normal

 

[nightanole]

My pothos have had triangle shaped pieces missing for 30 years, from just about every pet shop available reptile.

The only thing i have ever come across that was "toxic" was some of the Floridian outdoor decor/hedge that has irritating sap, which even the local gardeners know to not mow down without long sleeved shirts.

But i gotta say, ive never heard of a reptile taken down by a house plant. You never hear "Bill ate the christmas cactus and is lethargic".

 

[jamest0o0]

I tend to be on the side of the fence that they're safe, if I had a veiled, I'd probably use them. You would just think oxalate crystals would have some sort of burning just due to them being talked about like small pieces of glass. Idt there are many plants that will instantly kill an animal, but some toxins could cause longterm damage from repeated exposure. Not saying I'm certain pothos does this at all. Anyway, I think it would be good practice to mention the toxins that we do know to be harmful, or probably harmful, and then the ones like in this case where it's probably safe. That way people can just look up plants that they're interested in and go by what it contains.

 

[salty dog]

We don't know biological process of chameleon organs break down absorption & filtering of minerals & vital life supporting molecules, body chemistry is entirely different than other animals than the plants toxicity list is based on online.....we can just recommend that the best non toxic easy growing plant is the scheffelara...

 

[The Wild One]

This thread puts a whole new spin on things.

 

[cyberlocc]

We don't know biological process of chameleon organs break down absorption & filtering of minerals & vital life supporting molecules, body chemistry is entirely different than other animals than the plants toxicity list is based on online.....we can just recommend that the best non toxic easy growing plant is the scheffelara...

Did you not see the link earlier? Scheffelara is toxic.

Has high levels of the same stuff as pothos. Also James thsg link does mention what the oxalate do (to torts).

Mouth pain, and stomach pain are listed.

 

[PetNcs]

We don't know biological process of chameleon organs break down absorption & filtering of minerals & vital life supporting molecules, body chemistry is entirely different than other animals than the plants toxicity list is based on online.....we can just recommend that the best non toxic easy growing plant is the scheffelara...

ot is severely toxic to lethat to small
Mammals
So this really is not what I would agree to

 

[jamest0o0]

Like someone mentioned before, think it was cyber, almost all plants/vegetables/etc have some sort of toxin/anti nutrient that can be harmful to something.

 

[Beman]

Ok while yall are discussing this.... What are you using in outdoor cages for Veiled chams? I need something that can handle sun and temps getting to about 75.

I can't add my normal indoor plants because they die off in direct sun. I was looking at plants and saw that Jasmine is considered non toxic to dogs and cats. But I am hesitant trying something that has not been used with Chameleons.

 

[The Wild One]

Ok while yall are discussing this.... What are you using in outdoor cages for Veiled chams? I need something that can handle sun and temps getting to about 75.

I can't add my normal indoor plants because they die off in direct sun. I was looking at plants and saw that Jasmine is considered non toxic to dogs and cats. But I am hesitant trying something that has not been used with Chameleons.

A huge hibiscus, if this one wasn’t around other plants it would totally be Codas free range. It’s about 8 feet tall