Purpose of the casque.
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jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
Chameleons are old world lizards, but just how 'old world' are they?... Could they be controlled by aliens dating back to ancient sumeria? new evidence suggests... they might be. But how did they get here? And what is their purpose? benevolent protectors of earth... or something more sinister....
JoXie411
Chameleon Enthusiast
The lizard ppl brought them to keep an eye on us
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
Fine
This thread has gone in a downward spiral. Sad.
I hope this helps put it back on track.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/casque-anatomy.92124/
"The structure of the casque is made up of bone. The center ridge is the parietal bone, the rear sides are the squamosal bones, and the base toward the eyes are the postorbitofrontal bones. The space between the bones is filled primarily with jaw adductor muscles (the muscles responsible for closing the mouth and bite force). The enlarged casque serves a sexual selection and specific recognition function, but also serves to increase the force they are able to bite with."
"Sorry, that should say "..sexual selection and species recognition...".
"the increased surface for jaw adductor muscles to attach on the casque and the increased space to store the muscle bodies because of the increased space increases bite force. C. calyptratus has very high bite force for its size, for instance.
The casque and temporal region of the skull definitely gets sunken in, just like the eyes, with poor hydration and will fill back in with proper hydration. To the best of my knowledge this is just a hydration effect of the tissue, but I've not looked at it."
"
The best articles on the muscles of the casque is probably:
Rieppel, O. 1981. The skull and jaw adductor musculature in chamaeleons. Revue Suisse de Zoologie 88 (2): 433-445.
Rieppel, O. 1987. The phylogenetic relationships within the Chamaeleonidae, with comments on some aspects of cladistics analysis. Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society 89 (1): 41-62."
Further...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7021717/
"Casque size thus might be an honest signal of fighting ability21".....
I hope this helps put it back on track.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/casque-anatomy.92124/
"The structure of the casque is made up of bone. The center ridge is the parietal bone, the rear sides are the squamosal bones, and the base toward the eyes are the postorbitofrontal bones. The space between the bones is filled primarily with jaw adductor muscles (the muscles responsible for closing the mouth and bite force). The enlarged casque serves a sexual selection and specific recognition function, but also serves to increase the force they are able to bite with."
"Sorry, that should say "..sexual selection and species recognition...".
"the increased surface for jaw adductor muscles to attach on the casque and the increased space to store the muscle bodies because of the increased space increases bite force. C. calyptratus has very high bite force for its size, for instance.
The casque and temporal region of the skull definitely gets sunken in, just like the eyes, with poor hydration and will fill back in with proper hydration. To the best of my knowledge this is just a hydration effect of the tissue, but I've not looked at it."
"
The best articles on the muscles of the casque is probably:
Rieppel, O. 1981. The skull and jaw adductor musculature in chamaeleons. Revue Suisse de Zoologie 88 (2): 433-445.
Rieppel, O. 1987. The phylogenetic relationships within the Chamaeleonidae, with comments on some aspects of cladistics analysis. Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society 89 (1): 41-62."
Further...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7021717/
"Casque size thus might be an honest signal of fighting ability21".....
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I miss Chris Anderson’s presence 
Seana_Lynch
Established Member
I think you misinterpreted the original comment. They meant that the water drips down the casque to their mouth which I’ve seen. Also chams do store fat in the back and sides of the casque once overweight.
Are you a herpetologist/veterinarian/scientist who has studied/disected chameleons in the wild/lab?
That came off mean.... they were saying what they have witnessed themselves and speaking to the fat they Petr himself says is stored in the casque when they are overweight.
If qualifications for posting are now that you must be a vet, scientist, or herpetologist then that leaves out 99.9% of us that actively help and provide feedback.
It wasn't intended to be mean...I could have worded it better I suppose. My apologies for it sounding mean.
I have no problem with the comment that the water can drip down the casque into the mouth....things can serve more than one"purpose".
Concerning the fat....which is where my comment was really directed.
Petr said he was wrong about the fat in the casque.
You said...."If qualifications for posting are now that you must be a vet, scientist, or herpetologist then that leaves out 99.9% of us that actively help and provide feedback"....qualifications for posting certainly DO NOT require that...but maybe a statement needs some backing?
I have no problem with the comment that the water can drip down the casque into the mouth....things can serve more than one"purpose".
Concerning the fat....which is where my comment was really directed.
Petr said he was wrong about the fat in the casque.
You said...."If qualifications for posting are now that you must be a vet, scientist, or herpetologist then that leaves out 99.9% of us that actively help and provide feedback"....qualifications for posting certainly DO NOT require that...but maybe a statement needs some backing?
As someone who has in fact dissected and operated on veiled chameleon casques I have personally seen fat between and around the muscles. Next time I’ll take a picture for the purpose of this argument... This may not be the case in a normal, lean weight chameleon. However especially in the obese ones this is present. So to blanket state that it is not possible for fat to be present because it may not be there in a lean chameleon is not correct. I think that is where the miscommunication lies.
And I agree things can serve more than one purpose even if it wasn’t their intended evolutionary purpose. Just like how elk and deer can scratch themselves with their antlers when they have an itch. That is obviously not their sole purpose or what they were evolved for, but it still can serve an alternate purpose.
Well I’m at a point where I am so passed being confused... I’m told and have read in multiple forums about fat being stored in the casque... told by Petr that Beman is fat based on his casque/cheeks.
I’m getting tired of being told something with no further input or explanation. Just his word... So now it is they are not storing fat in the casque????Then why has he even said that it was in videos..
In this video Petr himself does an autopsy on a Veiled that is fat. It shows at 24 seconds in him showing the fat in the casque.....
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I've seen/listened to the video Petr made. I've heard many times that they store water in the casque....I've heard many times that they store fat in the casque...I don't think I've ever said either is true...I've just left it in limbo.
I've heard many different claims about chameleons that I have held in limbo until I could figure it out for myself. For example...Perhaps you don't remember/know about it, but quite a few years ago it was said that if the female veileds weren't bred at their first cycle they would die eggbound....but it wasn't that they had to be bred...it was that the female's husbandry was wrong.
It's still said that if a chameleon's eyes are sunken in, it's dehydrated....and sometimes it's true...but mostly they are sunkenfor other reasons.
I try to say things like "in my experience"..."from what I've heard from others who have had the problem"...and not make absolute stat,events unless I'm absolutely sure.
Anyway...my intent was not to be mean.
I've heard many different claims about chameleons that I have held in limbo until I could figure it out for myself. For example...Perhaps you don't remember/know about it, but quite a few years ago it was said that if the female veileds weren't bred at their first cycle they would die eggbound....but it wasn't that they had to be bred...it was that the female's husbandry was wrong.
It's still said that if a chameleon's eyes are sunken in, it's dehydrated....and sometimes it's true...but mostly they are sunkenfor other reasons.
I try to say things like "in my experience"..."from what I've heard from others who have had the problem"...and not make absolute stat,events unless I'm absolutely sure.
Anyway...my intent was not to be mean.
Seana_Lynch
Established Member
How he can do that without gloves is amazing hahah
@Beman this is one of the more frustrating parts of loving chameleons. We (collective we as in humanity) are still learning about them and things can change quite a bit as we learn more. What we know now that we didn’t know even 10 years ago (not to mention a few decades ago) is quite a bit, and continues to evolve as we get more information. And there is still so much we need to learn. A cooperative knowledge approach is necessary to advance the collective knowledge. And as we continue to learn some things will be outdated but still found on the internet. The blessing and curse of the internet is the permanence of information posted.
So true.
I totally agree with you. I can see how things have changed just with the UVB lighting we use now compared to 10 years ago. I am totally open to new information.
I am the type that always tries to learn more and more. I just prefer details... Not just a blanket statement of this is what it is period without any additional information. I want the details. In that video.... It sure looks like fat to me if what he points out to in the abdomen is fat then it looks to be the exact same in the casque. I am not a Veterinarian. I do not have a background in science but when I see someone who does in a video doing and autopsy saying it is fat. I trust that is in fact what it is.
The other part of this that is very frustrating to me personally. Is supposedly Beman is overweight. I get told these things and base my care of my chameleons on them. Beman on a diet to lose weight... At 15 inches total length and 150 grams I am told that he is too fat. That he should be 125-130 max to be healthy for his size. I am told that his casque and cheeks are holding excess weight. And Petr is the one that put this info out there and has also said it to me recently.
So if he is not fat then I am depriving him and he is loosing weight... all because this is what I was told to do and I listened because I respected the source of the information.
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
The way that I see it is that little in biology can be an exact science. Speaking in terms of human biology, we have been studying our own bodies and biology for eons, yet there is still so much that we don’t know, are learning and what was once thought to be true is proven false.
As chameleons have been studied for far less time and with much less interest, we have no idea what we don’t know yet. We have learned how to keep them alive and simulate to the best of our abilities and knowledge a suitable domestic habitat. However, we will always be learning more the longer that we keep them and the more interest there is in studying them.
Who can truly say with 100% certainty what the purpose of the casque is? We can theorize that it is a display for mating purposes, which has some merit. We can also theorize that it does hold fat and possibly even fluid stores to help sustain them through the dry season. Both theories make sense. Does it channel water to the mouth - maybe. That would be an additional benefit to the animal and may have influenced the evolution of the shape.
Do I have any proof to back any of these theories up? Nope. Just using my basic knowledge of misc stuff and putting it together in my brain in a way that makes sense to me.
As chameleons have been studied for far less time and with much less interest, we have no idea what we don’t know yet. We have learned how to keep them alive and simulate to the best of our abilities and knowledge a suitable domestic habitat. However, we will always be learning more the longer that we keep them and the more interest there is in studying them.
Who can truly say with 100% certainty what the purpose of the casque is? We can theorize that it is a display for mating purposes, which has some merit. We can also theorize that it does hold fat and possibly even fluid stores to help sustain them through the dry season. Both theories make sense. Does it channel water to the mouth - maybe. That would be an additional benefit to the animal and may have influenced the evolution of the shape.
Do I have any proof to back any of these theories up? Nope. Just using my basic knowledge of misc stuff and putting it together in my brain in a way that makes sense to me.
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
Have you seen it in the wild? Not.
You kihjt have seen something under unnatural captive conditions which is very likely irrelevant.
They do notnstire any fst in the casques: provide proof.
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