Question about dangling limbs and gout

[werecat]

Lately I've read several threads that indicate dangling arms/legs as a sign of gout. Is this always the case or do some chameleons sometimes just dangle their limbs off the branch when basking? Are dangling limbs really considered abnormal behavior?

Also, are there any other visual signs of gout or is the only other indicator high uric acid levels in the blood?

Just curious since my chameleon does dangle limbs from time to time. I always though that was just "how he rolls" when he's relaxing/basking. He does not do this all the time.

 

[werecat]

Bumping this once just to get some fresh eyes. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Lathelia]

If it's one or two same limbs each time then I would be concerned it might be gout. I believe they don't usually "roll" that way, but every cham is different, so who knows what's normal for yours

It's always best to get them checked by a vet to be sure there is nothing to worry about, especially with gout. The faster you get diagnosis the higher chance your cham has.

If gout is affecting limb, you should probably see a bump or swelling in the joints, thought I think it's not always the case.

Sorry I couldn't be any more help.

 

[redsfandrew]

I will notice my male ambi doing this every once in awhile too. He seems healthy otherwise though. I would be interested in hearing from more experienced keepers though.

 

[pigglett79]

We adopted an older panther 3 months ago. He dangles his legs and I felt he may have gout. I thought his joints looked a little swollen, but the vet didnt seem to think they looked abnormal. However, his blood work came back with elevated uric acid. Next we are going to do x rays to confirm prior to starting any treatment.

I haven't seen any of the other guys dangle their legs so in my opinion it is an abnormal behavior.

 

[Psychobunny]

I have a panther with visceral gout.
Besides the leg dangling, look for general lethargic, slow behaviour, not
interested in drinking, eating less.
I would think, in the wild it would be dangerous for a cham to not have a firm grip, in case of a predator, in captivity though, I dont know.
If the cham is dangling all 4 legs AND his tail, I would have his blood tested.

 

[carol5208]

I have seen my panthers from time to time dangle a leg while basking or resting but it is not something that is a constant behavior. I think when it becomes a regular things, then it is something to look into. When my Romeo came down with kidney failure, his knee joint became very swollen and he would hang his leg all the time. Bloodwork determined his uric acid to be super high, and he was diagnosed with gout. When the kidneys are not functioning properly then they are not going to distribute the uric acid into the urine, but into the joints and organs instead. Also a needle aspiration was done into the swollen joint and under the microscope(the vet showed me) there were actual spikey like crystals that could be seen when magnified. IMO dangling on occasion is ok, but when they start doing it all the time, I would have it checked out for sure.

 

[Carlton]

I have seen my panthers from time to time dangle a leg while basking or resting but it is not something that is a constant behavior. I think when it becomes a regular things, then it is something to look into. IMO dangling on occasion is ok, but when they start doing it all the time, I would have it checked out for sure.

I agree with this. Some of my chams were regular leg danglers and others never get that relaxed about things. Gout and leg dangling is just not going to be that simple. It would have to go along with other signs of discomfort and health to be very valuable.

 

[werecat]

Thank you for the replies! I do feel that this behavior is somewhat regular, but still not very frequent. It happens just enough that it made me wonder, but not enough to feel like it alone is worth a run to the vet. I don't see any swelling around the joints and his drinking and appetite are very good. His grip is good too. He has been a lot less active since the fall time change but the vet seems to think it's just a seasonal thing.

I will keep an eye on this behavior though. I'm planning to change up the branches in his cage and give him more variety of widths to exercise his little paws. If I observe more dangling or other odd foot behavior I'll take him in to the vet. Otherwise, the next time I take him for an exam I'll ask for bloodwork and X-ray.

I recently brought him to a SBCK meeting where a few members looked him over. I know they would have said something if they noticed something of concern.

I'm glad this thread is getting some attention though because it is an interesting symptom that can easily also just be normal behavior for an aboreal creature. I think such topics deserve discussion and it's nice to hear the input of experienced keepers.

 

[Carlton]

I'm glad this thread is getting some attention though because it is an interesting symptom that can easily also just be normal behavior for an aboreal creature. I think such topics deserve discussion and it's nice to hear the input of experienced keepers.

One of my first melleri could be compared to a full leopard in a savannah tree. Up to four legs dangling, chin on branch, tail draped with an artistic flair, belly bulging over the branch. She was fine for years.

 

[werecat]

One of my first melleri could be compared to a full leopard in a savannah tree. Up to four legs dangling, chin on branch, tail draped with an artistic flair, belly bulging over the branch. She was fine for years.

Hah, that's funny! I can totally picture her.

The first time I saw my guy (in a photo taken by his previous owner) he was hanging hammock-style by only one front paw and his tail. The previous owner said he was just chillin' like that until he noticed the camera.

 

[werecat]

Found it! They can be so funny sometimes.

 

[carol5208]

When gout is present, you will see a lump on the affected joint and it will be hard. It is uric acid crystals(called tophi) and it is painful just like it is for humans. From what I have learned they can also have gout in their organs which might not be present in the joints or it could be in both with severe cases. Just something to watch for if it becomes too regular a behavior. Hopefully your chameleon is just chillin out and it is nothing to worry about!

 

[Carlton]

Found it! They can be so funny sometimes.

GREAT shot! What a character!

 

[Psychobunny]

When gout is present, you will see a lump on the affected joint and it will be hard. It is uric acid crystals(called tophi) and it is painful just like it is for humans. From what I have learned they can also have gout in their organs which might not be present in the joints or it could be in both with severe cases. Just something to watch for if it becomes too regular a behavior. Hopefully your chameleon is just chillin out and it is nothing to worry about!

That's what Squee has, visceral gout, in the organs only, so there is no
'tell-tail' joint swelling.
I have read, and been told by vets, that this is actually a very complex
problem, so just because your cham never gets too much protein, and never any animal protein, dont assume gout cant happen.
There are many ways they can develop it, and lots of times, it has nothing to do with husbandry or anything you can control.
They could just be geneticly predisposed to it

 

[carol5208]

That's what Squee has, visceral gout, in the organs only, so there is no
'tell-tail' joint swelling.
I have read, and been told by vets, that this is actually a very complex
problem, so just because your cham never gets too much protein, and never any animal protein, dont assume gout cant happen.
There are many ways they can develop it, and lots of times, it has nothing to do with husbandry or anything you can control.
They could just be geneticly predisposed to it

yes the protein being one cause, but it was the same with my Sambava that got it and protein was not the issue. Obviously, when the kidneys become compromised then the uric acid is not going to be cleared out properly. I had Romeo on some antibiotics for quite a period of time trying to clear of the foot infection(which would come and go) and I think that was the demise of his kidneys. I never beat myself up over my husbandry because I felt it was the best it could be. I am finding more and more on here, no matter what we do as far as care sometimes it is just out of our control whether it be genetic or whatever.

 

[werecat]

Yes, it does seem to be a complex disease with unfortunately few outward signs (as many cham problems seem to be). Is it considered a fairly common issue for chams? I see it pop up quite a bit in threads. Also, at what age does it typically set in? I've noticed some people mention it is more common in older chams. Obviously, as stated, some can just be genetically predisposed, but I'm just curious about when it typically begins to appear.

 

[Carlton]

Yes, it does seem to be a complex disease with unfortunately few outward signs (as many cham problems seem to be). Is it considered a fairly common issue for chams? I see it pop up quite a bit in threads. Also, at what age does it typically set in? I've noticed some people mention it is more common in older chams. Obviously, as stated, some can just be genetically predisposed, but I'm just curious about when it typically begins to appear.

IMHO, complex problems like this (MBD, gout, URI, parasites) get brought up in cycles. When one of them happens to crop up in forum discussions it can become a sort of "illness du jour". Part of it could be the mechanics of the internet. If someone starts searching online for explanations for some symptom in their cham, the search results may lead them straight to a discussion on gout. Eager to answer their question, they grab hold.

I'm not suggesting that keepers shouldn't be worried about gout, but that it can be easy to attribute all sorts of signs to a convenient cause. It doesn't surprise me that gout starts showing up in older chams. Captive chams are living longer...in some cases a lot longer than their wild ancestors would have ever managed. We know things don't work as efficiently in older animals, we know so little about the effects of our limited captive produced diets on longer lived animals, or even how delicately balanced supplements need to be to avoid metabolic problems like this.

 

[Psychobunny]

IMHO, complex problems like this (MBD, gout, URI, parasites) get brought up in cycles. When one of them happens to crop up in forum discussions it can become a sort of "illness du jour". Part of it could be the mechanics of the internet. If someone starts searching online for explanations for some symptom in their cham, the search results may lead them straight to a discussion on gout. Eager to answer their question, they grab hold.

I'm not suggesting that keepers shouldn't be worried about gout, but that it can be easy to attribute all sorts of signs to a convenient cause. It doesn't surprise me that gout starts showing up in older chams. Captive chams are living longer...in some cases a lot longer than their wild ancestors would have ever managed. We know things don't work as efficiently in older animals, we know so little about the effects of our limited captive produced diets on longer lived animals, or even how delicately balanced supplements need to be to avoid metabolic problems like this.

Good points, there are many things we still do not understand.
It seems when I take a cham to the vet for one thing, say, infection due to
a burn, and getting stuck with needles, manhandled and then given Baytril
for a few weeks, suddenly, other ailments start popping up!!

Another problem is correctly interpreting test results and deciding on the right treatment, much of it is "best guess", and not completely understood.

My vet does have cham experience, but he still had to consult with other vets
to come up with their "best guess" and decide on a treatment.
I have read that high uric acid can be the result of extreme stress!!
I don't know if that's true or not, but I think chams are often misdiagnosed
and given meds which may either not be correct, or not make any difference