"Red" Jackson X's - what do you know?

little leaf

little leaf

Avid Member
I was wondering when they lose the "red phase" - I know some never do, I am trying to decide what baby(s) I would like to keep, I have not seen any adult male "red" Jacksons - but have seen a few adult females - by red, I mean the redish eyes, and strip on the side, as well as the red skin on the neck. right now all the babies are " red" , 3 boys, 1 girl - the girl also has green skin, and horns where the boys all have tan skin- I was thinking of breeding and trying to pull more "red" genes- or is this not a good thing to do- breed for more red? I don't want to do anything ethically wrong- at this point its just a thought - but I thought it may be a neat breeding project, also , if anyone has a "red" adult male, can you please post his pic - or a really redish female -

feel free to give me your thought on this
thanks :)
 
Breeding for a color trait you want isn't ethically wrong, its your decision.:) Sure there are some that will cry "no no no", but then there are others like myself who would support it! I myself would try to bring more red into a line of Jacksons if I had the Chams to do it. I understand if it were a species of Cham that is rare to try and keep them true until there are enough of them around. Jacksons are a common species(no shortage) that can be found anywhere they are allowed, so seeing someone working a color line of something new would be exciting!!! Its been done with many other reptiles in the past, so whats the differance? Heck, you could give it a cool name:D "Mad Jacks, Fire Balls, Etc." Bringing morphs into the reptile world is what has established the reptile craze you see today. People want more then just what everyone else has or the norm!!! A new color line/morph, would bring more enthusiests into the Cham world... Anyone who has been involved with reptiles over the years can agree with that! Bearded Dragons, Leopard Geckos, Ball Pythons, Columbian Boas, King and Milk Snakes, Etc... Most reptile shows offer more of those animals then Chameleons. Why, because of the color/morph varieties! Those breeders have raised the bar on whats available and started a huge following, as well as bringing in new owners in all the time. So if someone asked is it ethical to try and breed a color/morph into a Cham, it would only be considerd unethical to some. Its one of those those things where you have to pick a side!:)

Besides, its gonna get that way eventually. As more people breed Chams and offer the same green lizards or local speciality, the prices and popularity will drop. People wanna see something new, looking around a seeing the same thing over and over(green jackson, green veild with some blue/orange, red bar ambilobie, blue bar ambilobie, blue nosey, etc.), will get old. Though panthers do have many variations in each local, most look similar. When there is a huge abundance of a reptile and its cheap, people look past it. And they will become cheap because people will lower their prices to beat the other guys prices. Then the price wars begin... (Some will hold out and raise the Chams waiting for a buyer of a higher price, and some of those holders will sell cheap eventually because they cant keep the animals anymore, due to room, cost, etc.). The people who wont look past them will be the people looking for a cheap pet to put in a cheap cage for their 7 year old. Look what has happened to iguana's, normal leopard geckos, normal beardeds, normal snakes and such, they are considerd a disposable pet. Sad, but true!

Sorry, I think I got into a rant.... Just speaking my mind!
 
thanks for your input LL :) would they still be considered a " morph" if I start with what is already there, and just hone it ? Olive is a wc, she "came" this way naturally, she was gravid when I got her, I have no idea who the dad was ( :( ) but all the babies were born with "red" underskin - I am sure some will lose this, and I have a rather odd baby girl ( at least we think its a girl- "she" has the facial structure of a female , yet has horns ) she and Olive will be my "base line" breeders - like I said, I am just thinking about it- I know this is something that will take at lest a few yrs to see if I can pull the reds out- I tried to find some "genetic" info on the "red" jacksons, but cant really find much - or a Red male - lol I was going to keep 2 of the male, one has the pink eyes, one has no pink on its eyes - I am thinking ??? - lol that the one w/o the pink eyes will trun green like a reg JX - the other...I kinda want to keep just to see if I am right - or sell him to someone who will be willing to keep me updated on how his color changes, or stays
 
I don't think its ethically wrong to breed for a specific color trait. As a matter of personal opinion I think its very desirable. If we can manipulate color variations and create something truly spectacular it will mean less wild caught imports.
 
You already know what I know about it, nada. Be as long as you don't interbreed, I think it is a wonderful thing to do. The only time I personally think it is wrong is if you breed related chams. That just weakens the line, IMO.
 
Agreed^^^... Inbreeding or line breeding some would call it will weakn the lines and outsourceing will have to be done at some point, and sometimes unfortunatly making things worse or prolonging the project. You just have to really understand genetics, and Cham Genetics is something I am not 100% on. Though I am clear on snake and lizard genetics, Chams are another story due to the cells in the skin for color.

I say run with it Little Leaf, if you can afford the space and cost! The pay off could be huge!!! As for calling what you have a morph, sadly I would have to say no:(. Since there is nothing really huge about their differance, they are just a locale thing... But, if the babies produce something extrodinary, then that is all yours to name and call a morph!!! Seems you are at a point many top breeders have been in...... keep and try, or cut your lose. Many of the big boys I delt with back in the day(Brian Sharp, Robert Mailloux, etc.) would jump on anything that seemed out of the norm.(but they could afford it) Because there was that small chance that they saw something special about their reptile! As for the horn thing on a girl, only time will tell about 100% sex. Being Jacksons, so many are imported, thats its not unusual that something special passed by someone not looking or the off spring wouldn't be known until later. Most of those guys dealing with imports or the collectors are looking for something odd, a Cham with semi-off colors might not raise a flag, or in your case just the offspring.(something they wouldn't see)

If you can and want to do it LL, run with it!!! Whats the worst of it....... you watch your babies grow up?:) If you bust out some true red Jacks.......WOW!!! People will pay your asking price, no questions asked!!!
 
yes, I just may give it a go :) I used to breed horses, tried to get pintalossa - we got one, but the mare lost it very late in term, and hoses take 11 mos !! so you can just guess how many yrs I had wrapped up in that - :eek: but I was able to get a few other colors we were after too- in the roan , appy lines - anyway... is there a link on how to start something like this ? I first need to know if there is even such a thing as a "red" male - has ANYONE ever seen one as an adult ?
 
Do it. Seriously man, I like the diversity in the lines. I see no problem with trait segregation. One thing to note, is the difference between "inbreeding" and "line breeding". They are completely different. Inbreeding is bad mmkay, hehe, its when you cross brother to sister to mother to father, etc.. Line breeding is not so bad unless you begin to see negative traits surfacing then its necessary to cull or if possible "outcross" ie: mix some new bloodline in. Line breeding is from one specific parent with a particular trait to offspring with a preferred generational gap. You must assume, in the wild, the chams dont travel miles to mix in new blood and most likely end up getting mixed with siblings quite often. Good luck with that and if you get any unwanted Jacksons, let me know. I like getting chams when they are just a few weeks old. I like raising them from itty bitty runts into big mama jamas.
 
VigilantSpearIII said:
Do it. Seriously man, I like the diversity in the lines. I see no problem with trait segregation. One thing to note, is the difference between "inbreeding" and "line breeding". They are completely different. Inbreeding is bad mmkay, hehe, its when you cross brother to sister to mother to father, etc.. Line breeding is not so bad unless you begin to see negative traits surfacing then its necessary to cull or if possible "outcross" ie: mix some new bloodline in. Line breeding is from one specific parent with a particular trait to offspring with a preferred generational gap. You must assume, in the wild, the chams dont travel miles to mix in new blood and most likely end up getting mixed with siblings quite often. Good luck with that and if you get any unwanted Jacksons, let me know. I like getting chams when they are just a few weeks old. I like raising them from itty bitty runts into big mama jamas.
Click to expand...

yes, the "line breeding" is somewhat common in the horses- we did not, but our neighbors do - but they are race ppl - we were mostly halter - but in the chams, I would think you can try to pull the traits you want - just as in the horses , but it is something I would like to try to avoid :) if you like "mama jamas" you will like Olive- she is 111 grams :p
 
I have seen this rusty red color people speek of, but not often and usually more brown. Its been a while since I have even seen a rusty Jacksons, and yeah its usually the girls. If I saw an adult red male couldn't say for sure, since its been years since I was involved with Chams and reptiles and don't remember everything.:( Hey maybe thats the gig, female "red' trait, something to bring out in males. As for where to start..... It usually starts with collecting the specimans that have the trait you want, and going from there. If you can find out the colors of your speciman parents, even better! But guessing you have time since your babies are just babies:) I would say start keeping an eye out in for sale websites and some shows as well, might just be that diamond in the ruff some where.:) Catalog EVERTHING, but since you did horses, you already know how that works.

Good luck if you decide to pursue this adventure!!!

Perhaps members and friends will keep an eye out for you, if a red Jackson pops up some where:)

little leaf said:
yes, I just may give it a go :) I used to breed horses, tried to get pintalossa - we got one, but the mare lost it very late in term, and hoses take 11 mos !! so you can just guess how many yrs I had wrapped up in that - :eek: but I was able to get a few other colors we were after too- in the roan , appy lines - anyway... is there a link on how to start something like this ? I first need to know if there is even such a thing as a "red" male - has ANYONE ever seen one as an adult ?
Click to expand...
 
welcome it

Pretty much all the jax come from the original 32 (36 depending on source) from hawaii. i love my jax, but they do seem plain next to my panthers,veil,nosy bes. some new blood would be appreciated.
 
My female jax almost looks just like this, except more dark and light greens, and has very thick red lines that run through her neck when she eats. And has red lines down doth sides of the body. She is amazing!





I have yet to name her........


Gorgosaurus said:
Here´s my female. Is this what you mean? Never seen a male like this.



Spike.
Click to expand...
 
Red female

Gorgeosaurus, your red girl is AMAZING! I'm TOTALLY jealous and I hope mine grows up that pretty. Here's my new beige and peach girl.
 
Pics of my red phase

Sorry, the pics didn't attach.

SCharton74 said:
Gorgeosaurus, your red girl is AMAZING! I'm TOTALLY jealous and I hope mine grows up that pretty. Here's my new beige and peach girl.
Click to expand...
 

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I do have some males that where born this way too however they are much darker then the rest and have the red glow to them.
I'll try and post some pics and you all can tell me if it's similar.
 
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