Jasonmichaelborg
Member
Dang maxttu, look what you started.......lol
repashy cal + , finally
- Thread starter arnau666
- Start date
maxttu
New Member
arnau666
Established Member
this is the mail i got from Allen:
Hello Alex.
The expiration date is for an unopened product. Even unopened, it really depends on the conditions it is kept under. The expiration date assumes it is kept at room temperature.
Once opened, the life of the product will vary depending on temperature and humidity. In a hot and humid reptile room, it might not be good for more than a few months. If kept in the refrigerator, and you only take out a month's supply at a time and don't keep reopening it, it will likely be good until the expiration date.
It is never recommended you use it past the expiration date under any conditions. The best practice is to buy the amount you think will last you a year or less, this way you are removing the variables of using a product that has less strength as it gets older. It is not like it just goes bad all at once. It slowly degrades over time from the day it is made.
Cheers, Allen
Hello Alex.
The expiration date is for an unopened product. Even unopened, it really depends on the conditions it is kept under. The expiration date assumes it is kept at room temperature.
Once opened, the life of the product will vary depending on temperature and humidity. In a hot and humid reptile room, it might not be good for more than a few months. If kept in the refrigerator, and you only take out a month's supply at a time and don't keep reopening it, it will likely be good until the expiration date.
It is never recommended you use it past the expiration date under any conditions. The best practice is to buy the amount you think will last you a year or less, this way you are removing the variables of using a product that has less strength as it gets older. It is not like it just goes bad all at once. It slowly degrades over time from the day it is made.
Cheers, Allen
WendyK8
New Member
I got my first cham, a sambava male, back in March and I have been using only repashy cal+ for dusting and using it every day, he has grown amazingly well and so far no health problems (omg, knock on wood!). he's got great colors coming through, super active and eats like a champ! I have also found that he really likes the dust on the crix too, he will dive for a freshly dusted cricket and totally ignore a cricket that has been in there for awhile that the dust has worn off. I also gutload strictly with the repashy bug burger which seems to be working quite well also. As a new cham mom, I totally recomend the repashy products, they have made my whole experience so much easier and less stressfull!
Dr O
Veterinarian
i have used snippets of your text, but do not believe that i have taken anything out of context.
even on this point, you yourself seem confused. first sentence, you advise 4-8x monthly. second sentence, 2x monthly. third sentence, 4x monthly. my point; again, no regard for anything scientific, just some gut instincts that apparently from your post change every few seconds for you.
i will continue to contribute here, where we were discussing shelf-life before you barraged into it. but i did read the other thread, and i'm sorry to tell you, but you are terribly misinformed about digestions of vitamins, ingredients based on dry matter availability, and even what the ingredients themselves are there for. being misinfromed or uneducated about something like this is fine as most people don't tend to study animal nutrion as veterinarians do, but to post about it as if it were fact is completely irresponsible. so let's look at some actual facts. i'm your Google engine for today only; i hope i can shed some light and you may learn something, but at the least i don't want other people reading this thread and leave with questions in their mind.
your's and your chameleons liver will produce bile and absorb whatever vitamins it needs through micelle balls being absorbed via specific receptors and proteins in the intestinal walls. the body is a lot smarter than you give it credit for. in fact, it's sometimes difficult to find vitamin A without combined D since they enhance each other's absorption so well. we'll make this simple: http://www.ehow.com/topic_825_vitamins-a-d.html
this is dry matter basis, not a dosage. Allen clearly goes through why those levels are needed by measuring how much dust actually sticks to a typical cricket. you can read his excellent article here:http://www.store.repashy.com/vitamins-and-minerals-in-the-superfood-products.html
well, how about we start with the ingredient list, which is full of amino acid prologues and minerals. you can Google or Wikipedia the entire list and see that they are some of the most active molecules for healthy physiology for at least the entire Subphylum Vertebrata. but here's a few for you:
Spirulina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirulina_(dietary_supplement)
It is a complete protein containing all essential amino acids, though with reduced amounts of methionine, cysteine and lysine when compared to the proteins of meat, eggs and milk. It is, however, superior to typical plant protein, such as that from legumes.
Whey isolate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whey_protein_isolate
Whey proteins are highly bioavailable, are very quickly absorbed into the body, and have a high concentration of branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs) [1] which are highly concentrated in muscle tissue, and are used to fuel working muscles and stimulate protein synthesis.
Hemp flour
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemp
Hemp protein contains all 21 known amino acids, including the 9 essential ones adult bodies cannot produce. Proteins are considered complete when they contain all the essential amino acids in sufficient quantities and ratios to meet the body's needs.
Potassium, magnesium, and calcium jump out at me pretty quickly for being minerals. and they are there along with several other mineral prologues and analogues, mainly in the kelp (iron, phosphorous, zinc, potassium, sodium). dunno why you think they don't exist in the formula.
His vitamin supplementation speaks for itself;.
Vitamins (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Choline Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement).
anyway folks, judge for yourselves. heresay vs. research. i don't sell Repashy products (for now at least), but as i have said several times before in many threads, i personally believe it to be the next generation of a group of already excellent supplements. it's not as if i haven't used Miner-all, Reptivite, Herptivite et al. myself for decades. and they are all fantastic, based on how the end-user gives them. i have switched to exclusive use of Repashy for all of my supplement needs, from fruit fly cultures, gut loading, and dusting. and my chams have never looked better. but i have also written numerous times how every lizard and it's environment are different from the next, so there are no blanket statements that can be made. variation of diet and supplementation needs to be done on every unique lizard as best as possible.
i am truly sorry that you have had issues with your chameleon's health, i really mean that. but i also think you're betting on the wrong horse as the reasons for your problems.
dr o—
even on this point, you yourself seem confused. first sentence, you advise 4-8x monthly. second sentence, 2x monthly. third sentence, 4x monthly. my point; again, no regard for anything scientific, just some gut instincts that apparently from your post change every few seconds for you.
i will continue to contribute here, where we were discussing shelf-life before you barraged into it. but i did read the other thread, and i'm sorry to tell you, but you are terribly misinformed about digestions of vitamins, ingredients based on dry matter availability, and even what the ingredients themselves are there for. being misinfromed or uneducated about something like this is fine as most people don't tend to study animal nutrion as veterinarians do, but to post about it as if it were fact is completely irresponsible. so let's look at some actual facts. i'm your Google engine for today only; i hope i can shed some light and you may learn something, but at the least i don't want other people reading this thread and leave with questions in their mind.
your's and your chameleons liver will produce bile and absorb whatever vitamins it needs through micelle balls being absorbed via specific receptors and proteins in the intestinal walls. the body is a lot smarter than you give it credit for. in fact, it's sometimes difficult to find vitamin A without combined D since they enhance each other's absorption so well. we'll make this simple: http://www.ehow.com/topic_825_vitamins-a-d.html
this is dry matter basis, not a dosage. Allen clearly goes through why those levels are needed by measuring how much dust actually sticks to a typical cricket. you can read his excellent article here:http://www.store.repashy.com/vitamins-and-minerals-in-the-superfood-products.html
well, how about we start with the ingredient list, which is full of amino acid prologues and minerals. you can Google or Wikipedia the entire list and see that they are some of the most active molecules for healthy physiology for at least the entire Subphylum Vertebrata. but here's a few for you:
Spirulina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirulina_(dietary_supplement)
It is a complete protein containing all essential amino acids, though with reduced amounts of methionine, cysteine and lysine when compared to the proteins of meat, eggs and milk. It is, however, superior to typical plant protein, such as that from legumes.
Whey isolate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whey_protein_isolate
Whey proteins are highly bioavailable, are very quickly absorbed into the body, and have a high concentration of branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs) [1] which are highly concentrated in muscle tissue, and are used to fuel working muscles and stimulate protein synthesis.
Hemp flour
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemp
Hemp protein contains all 21 known amino acids, including the 9 essential ones adult bodies cannot produce. Proteins are considered complete when they contain all the essential amino acids in sufficient quantities and ratios to meet the body's needs.
Potassium, magnesium, and calcium jump out at me pretty quickly for being minerals. and they are there along with several other mineral prologues and analogues, mainly in the kelp (iron, phosphorous, zinc, potassium, sodium). dunno why you think they don't exist in the formula.
His vitamin supplementation speaks for itself;.
Vitamins (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Choline Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement).
anyway folks, judge for yourselves. heresay vs. research. i don't sell Repashy products (for now at least), but as i have said several times before in many threads, i personally believe it to be the next generation of a group of already excellent supplements. it's not as if i haven't used Miner-all, Reptivite, Herptivite et al. myself for decades. and they are all fantastic, based on how the end-user gives them. i have switched to exclusive use of Repashy for all of my supplement needs, from fruit fly cultures, gut loading, and dusting. and my chams have never looked better. but i have also written numerous times how every lizard and it's environment are different from the next, so there are no blanket statements that can be made. variation of diet and supplementation needs to be done on every unique lizard as best as possible.
i am truly sorry that you have had issues with your chameleon's health, i really mean that. but i also think you're betting on the wrong horse as the reasons for your problems.
dr o—
Thank you Dr. O. i Feel like my brain has increased in size dramatically hahaha i will continue dusting with exclusively the cal+ and only gutload with the bug burger. all seem to be great so far, although i've only had my carpet cham for about 6 or 7 weeks. hes about 3-4 monthes old. i weighed him last week, 8.4g, and again this week, 9.3g. That lil piggy grew a gram in a week. thats over 10% body weight increase in a week.
ddvw123abc
New Member
So repashy can replace the three different dusting powders I have now? Where can I find some?
Jasonmichaelborg
Member
What you talk'n bout, Willis?
I totally screwed up, I read your name on the last poster line and just linked that with you being the op. My bad lol, one of those days
maxttu
New Member
maxttu
New Member
That's the word! Since Feb or March I've only used the cal+. You can order directly from Repashy. Click the sponsors link in the upper right hand corner of the page.
Jasonmichaelborg
Member
So for us "not so smart people" and in english please , what are people using and how often in this repashy line. Are you using bug burger, or anything else for the feeders too.
, what are people using and how often in this repashy line. Are you using bug burger, or anything else for the feeders too.
maxttu
New Member
So for us "not so smart people" and in english please
I gutload with bugburger and dinofuel a couple x's per week. Other days I'm using carrots, oranges, kale, etc. My guys get outside time all weekend, every weekend, therefore I've adjusted my dusting schedule to Mon and Thurs only. This is a recent change as of last week. We'll see how it goes...
Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
Jason,
Part of what Dr. O said is that no two chameleons or two chameleon owners will be the same, so you can't use blanket statements. For one person using this product every day will work great for their animals, where as for someone else using it 3-4 times weekly may be better. It depends on your gutloading, your lighting, the species of cham, etc. But in conclusion, Dr. O, Allen Repashy, and others think that it's a great product and you can use it often with no ill effects. How often you choose to use it is a little up to your best judgement.
Personally, I have Cal+ and plain no-D3 calcium from Repashy and use both as I see fit. The schedule is never the same two weeks in a row, and it depends on whether I have a gravid female, growing babies, or a fully grown male. But I do use both several times a week, in varying ratios. And I gutload with Repashy Superload, along with some veggies for moisture.
Part of what Dr. O said is that no two chameleons or two chameleon owners will be the same, so you can't use blanket statements. For one person using this product every day will work great for their animals, where as for someone else using it 3-4 times weekly may be better. It depends on your gutloading, your lighting, the species of cham, etc. But in conclusion, Dr. O, Allen Repashy, and others think that it's a great product and you can use it often with no ill effects. How often you choose to use it is a little up to your best judgement.
Personally, I have Cal+ and plain no-D3 calcium from Repashy and use both as I see fit. The schedule is never the same two weeks in a row, and it depends on whether I have a gravid female, growing babies, or a fully grown male. But I do use both several times a week, in varying ratios. And I gutload with Repashy Superload, along with some veggies for moisture.
Jasonmichaelborg
Member
I gutload with bugburger and dinofuel a couple x's per week. Other days I'm using carrots, oranges, kale, etc. My guys get outside time all weekend, every weekend, therefore I've adjusted my dusting schedule to Mon and Thurs only. This is a recent change as of last week. We'll see how it goes...
my guy never gets outside "yet" I have yet to build a outdoor enclosure. should I use it more?
Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
The link you gave me to Repashy's website talks about the levels he found beneficial to Rhacodactylus. These are species that are not even kept under UVB at all and have completely different diets and thus digestive systems than chameleons. I have seen crested geckos go through Hell and back where chameleons couldn't even stand a chance.
Experience showing the affects of vitamin D on a nocturnal gecko kept with no source of UVB cannot possibly give any information on what is good for a diurnal chameleon kept under a UVB source.
Thank you for clarifying on the amino acids though, that was the answer I was looking for. I was looking at the analysis of the product instead of the ingredients so my bad.
I appreciate your link to eHow.com telling me that 'vitamin A and vitamin D are like two peas in a pod'....... however, here are some more scientific reviews on the matter:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11585356?dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12612152?dopt=Abstract
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/news-archive/2010/vitamin-d-vitamin-a-and-cancer/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_A#Toxicity
Why do I find so many studies showing that Vitamin A inhibits vitamin D and thus calcium? Yes most of the studies are done on people and/or other mammals. Reptiles are renowned for storing nutrients much better than any mammal possibly could, so is it not reasonable to speculate that a little goes a long way? Why does it need to be in the supplement at every feeding?
The reason I am betting on this horse is because the only chameleons that are doing perfectly fine in my collection are the few that were only given CaPlus once a week and the two I have that go on regular hunger strikes (thus not getting as much of the product as the rest), all the rest are dead or sick. The ones that were only given it sparingly are doing FANTASTIC though. It truly is a great, great product, but it's being sold to the chameleon hobbyists the wrong way IMO. That is what I have a problem with.
I am a hobbyist, not a doctor, but don't belittle my opinions for not being so. I did not barrage this discussion; I want people to be aware of the dangers of over supplementing chameleons, which yes does happen and has happened well before Calcium PLUS. This is just as much my community as it is yours.
Experience showing the affects of vitamin D on a nocturnal gecko kept with no source of UVB cannot possibly give any information on what is good for a diurnal chameleon kept under a UVB source.
Thank you for clarifying on the amino acids though, that was the answer I was looking for. I was looking at the analysis of the product instead of the ingredients so my bad.
I appreciate your link to eHow.com telling me that 'vitamin A and vitamin D are like two peas in a pod'....... however, here are some more scientific reviews on the matter:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11585356?dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12612152?dopt=Abstract
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/news-archive/2010/vitamin-d-vitamin-a-and-cancer/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_A#Toxicity
Why do I find so many studies showing that Vitamin A inhibits vitamin D and thus calcium? Yes most of the studies are done on people and/or other mammals. Reptiles are renowned for storing nutrients much better than any mammal possibly could, so is it not reasonable to speculate that a little goes a long way? Why does it need to be in the supplement at every feeding?
The reason I am betting on this horse is because the only chameleons that are doing perfectly fine in my collection are the few that were only given CaPlus once a week and the two I have that go on regular hunger strikes (thus not getting as much of the product as the rest), all the rest are dead or sick. The ones that were only given it sparingly are doing FANTASTIC though. It truly is a great, great product, but it's being sold to the chameleon hobbyists the wrong way IMO. That is what I have a problem with.
I am a hobbyist, not a doctor, but don't belittle my opinions for not being so. I did not barrage this discussion; I want people to be aware of the dangers of over supplementing chameleons, which yes does happen and has happened well before Calcium PLUS. This is just as much my community as it is yours.
Dr O
Veterinarian
you are 100% right, and i apologize if you felt belittled. as a matter of fact, i misinterpreted something by the way it was written on your first post to me and thought you were really coming at me, thus my vigorous response. but after re-reading, i was wrong in your intent.
i haven't forgotten this thread and will get back to it this weekend. just been crazy busy with state board exams (passed!), a sick female that i have, and night time activities. i'm happy to continue the thread as soon as i have a real moment on the computer.
Dr O
Veterinarian
ok, various thoughts and ideas
-granted, i would like to see Allen's personal studies done with Furcifer, however, that is one of the reasons that he asked the Kammers to try his product which we all know by now was very successful in their hands. along with untold thousands of other chams out there that are getting it per the directions on the label. truly; in a forum this size and spanning so many continents don't you think that by now we would have case after case of people vilifying the diet of it were killing chameleons left and right? we don't; rather we have most people complimenting it and the effects it seems to have on their lizards, and the few negative comments that come up are unsupported by necropsy or labwork, such as yours. a few years back some dog and cat owners may remember some Chinese fertilizer ingredients getting into some lower-standard dog food lines and putting animals into renal failure. it wasn't subtle; people that had been feeding these diets for years suddenly had pets dying left and right and it was backed up in the veterinary communities, and finally some epidemiologists figured out the source of the problem. i see nothing remotely like that happening here. if anything, i see the opposite with positive feedback from the herp community.
-don't assume too quickly that Rhacodactylus demands are all that different than chameleons. notice i'm saying their demands, not their husbandry. you can go through just about any nocturnal lizard forum (or even snakes for that matter) and find owners who utilize UVB on their pets "when it's not generally recommended", and they report more activity, brighter colors, greater feeding, etc. as Rhacodactylus don't burrow underground every single dawn to escape the sun, they are still subject to UVB exposure. and there are studies (such as http://www.uvguide.co.uk/whatreptilesneed.htm) which demonstrate very well that there sems to be an inverse relationship between a lizard's skin and the amount of time that it basks. two good extremes being a horned lizard (very thick skin, so basks all day for it's UVB requirement) vs. geckos (extremely thin skin, seem to uptake UVB much more rapidly). so that crestie sleeping his day away in the low underbrush my not be geting more than a few minutes of shady light every few hours, but it's still UVB exposure. i think as the manufacturers start to understand this as more and more studies come in of reptiles that previously were thought to have no UVB requirements at all, we will see a change in the market in terms of bulbs and their use.
-i have to disagree about them having "completely different diets and thus digestive systems". Rhacodactylus do eat insects regularly, and veileds eat plants regularly. i've been inside, and i promise you the GI tracts are not very different at all. we are talking about a more primitive, less specified animal than a mammal, for instance. there's much less variation of organs at that level of the zoological branch.
-i looked at the studies that you provided, but not only are they human (see above paragraph), but i think 3 of the 4 that you chose specifically discuss Vitmain A in Scandinavian/Norse heritage. and there is just no comparing there at all; even in humans various ancestries are well known to have diferent nutritional requirements or be prone to specific genetic diseases. And Norwegians and their intake of fish and Vitamin A is well known for being an extreme group within Homo sapiens concerning their uptake and even how the high equatorial nature of their countries give them much less sunlight. beside those issues, you're picking some pretty far out studies, nothing that would be written as fact in a textbook for med school for instance (yet).
-another thought along another route entirely. let's say for the sake of argument that chameleons are being overdosed with calcium/D3 by Repashy Calcium Plus as you claim. so it's not that we're saying they are getting 90% of the D3 through diet, an overdose means we're talking about 150, 200, 500% more than they need. so if that's the case, then tell me why ALL of my panther and carpet chameleons bask on and off throughout the day outdoors here in Florida? the air temp is about 90ish, so they're not cold. but when it's 90° and they turn sideways to the sun, flatten out laterally, and darken their skin to absorb as much as they possibly can, that tells me that the chameleon that i'm looking at is gathering UVB for the calcium/D3 synthesis and metabolism. why would they do so every single day without fail, if their internal levels were so high that you are considering them potentially toxic? the only answer i can conclude is that they are indeed not being overdosed, and are topping off their D3 with sunlight as they naturally would.
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Hi
I keep my bag in the fridge, with a small amount kept out in the cham room.
I wouldnt and do not use this product daily as the label suggests. I also dont rely heavily on just crickets for prey. For me, the right amount of repashy calcium plus is once a week (I use a vitamin free calcium more often, and I gutload properly a wide variety of feeders). Prior to being generously given the Repashy product to try, I had kept panther chameleons alive, healthy, and breeding for many years without the use of any preformed vitamin A supplement at all. Indeed, I have always gone lightly with vitamin supplements of all kinds.. So for me, it was clearly unnecessary to start heavily dosing.
I keep my bag in the fridge, with a small amount kept out in the cham room.
I wouldnt and do not use this product daily as the label suggests. I also dont rely heavily on just crickets for prey. For me, the right amount of repashy calcium plus is once a week (I use a vitamin free calcium more often, and I gutload properly a wide variety of feeders). Prior to being generously given the Repashy product to try, I had kept panther chameleons alive, healthy, and breeding for many years without the use of any preformed vitamin A supplement at all. Indeed, I have always gone lightly with vitamin supplements of all kinds.. So for me, it was clearly unnecessary to start heavily dosing.
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