Serious problem with enclosure causing death?

[Saldarya]

I really wish I could afford a 6+lamp t8 linear fluorescent fixture with all the fancy bulbs and low heat transfer that I could dream of. I wish I could move to a nice cool and humid climate with an air conditioned and insulated home and sit on my sofa next to the giant pile of money that I am using to buy all of these things... but in reality,
i cant afford that.
Your the lucky ones if you can.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. The normally suggested UV set up would require an $11 fixture from Wal Mart and a $15 bulb.

You are taking peoples suggestions and blowing them off and then creating some crazy excuse (like quoted above) as to why you cant make any changes.

I can appreciate that you are frustrated for a couple of reasons.

1. You truly care for these animals as can be seen by the level of detail that you have put into creating this environment, and I can appreciate that you want the best for them.

But..

2. You are a very analytical person who goes to great depth and detail (can be seen in the way you write and the extent you go to provide the care). That being said, you ARE NOT willing to consider many bits of advice thus far that contradicts with what you have spent a ton of time and money to create.

I never considered that you were ignorant or otherwise not knowledgeable, but YOU are the one asking for help and suggestions.

Don't worry about having to blast me or dig up old posts like you did on Chameleopatrick, i wont be coming back here to offer any other suggestions, clearly you got it under control.

 

[jackschamnewbie]

yes I could cover 3 sides with plastic to help with humidity. I prefer covering two sides with plants and a wall on the third as it allows for some air circulation through the top and bottom.
However that is what led to the small puddle that would not evaporate. Which is also the same place that the pinheads and fruit flies were drowning and creating a foul smell. Not a putrid room filling hold your breath kind of smell but something that if your head was within two feet of you would be brought back to those childhood moments when your realize how weird your hand smells after you stuck it into a dirty fish tank. The enclosure typically smells like absolutely nothing and removing the plants from the sides, pulling it away from the wall and placing computer fans pointing up the drainage ramp and into the bottom of the cage has fixed that issue... but now humidity is yet again hard to maintain.

 

[jackschamnewbie]

I have no idea what you are talking about here. The normally suggested UV set up would require an $11 fixture from Wal Mart and a $15 bulb.
What I was refering to was the statement made by chameleopatrick in the forum he pointed me towards suggesting the use of a 6lamp t5ho w/ 1 arcadia bulb. Which was also the main argument of "The definitive lighting thread."
I have an 18" 15w linear t8 that does not put out enough visible light to see anything much less produce enough uva/uvb to keep a small frog healthy unless you were to put them inside of the bulb. It cost 30$ and came with an extra exoterra tropical uvb bulb. I shopped around for a week to find that deal as well. A month later I upgraded to two mini compact linear bulbs 26w a piece @ 5.0 uvb. They produce enough lumens to maintain plant growth and enough UVB for two adult jackson chameleons. A collector from a local reptile expo was not selling these bulbs or associated with the zoomed or petsmart but swore by them.
All apologies for ignoring your advice but a 26$ walmart uvb lamp is complete ****.

You are taking peoples suggestions and blowing them off and then creating some crazy excuse (like quoted above) as to why you cant make any changes.

I can appreciate that you are frustrated for a couple of reasons.

1. You truly care for these animals as can be seen by the level of detail that you have put into creating this environment, and I can appreciate that you want the best for them.

But..

2. You are a very analytical person who goes to great depth and detail (can be seen in the way you write and the extent you go to provide the care). That being said, you ARE NOT willing to consider many bits of advice thus far that contradicts with what you have spent a ton of time and money to create.

I never considered that you were ignorant or otherwise not knowledgeable, but YOU are the one asking for help and suggestions.
That comment was intended to be aimed at chameleopatrick
Don't worry about having to blast me or dig up old posts like you did on Chameleopatrick, i wont be coming back here to offer any other suggestions, clearly you got it under control.

The ability to check the credibility of the things you say and do on this web site makes you uncomfortable? I don't care if you read what I have to say about you because I do not flaming you. I will say what I have learned about you so that the others that stumble across this page can get an idea of who you are and figure out for themselves whether they want to read what you have to say. How am I not willing to consider advice when I have done everything that I could possibly do that this communuity brought up to me? WTF BRO?

 

[vgaines]

WOW. Reading threads like this makes me leery of asking questions.. Why must comments be rude and judgmental? Maybe I am showing my age here but everyone, even non-senior members, should be shown respect. Ever heard the saying " You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar"? People come on this forum with questions so they can get help not to be belittled. Constructive criticism is way better than just being flat out rude. Most of us are members of this forum because we truly care about the well being of not only our cham(s) but chams in general. Maybe we should all stop and think about how what we say to others may sound.

Saldarya...I have no idea what you are talking about here. The normally suggested UV set up would require an $11 fixture from Wal Mart and a $15 bulb.
Where do you get UVB bulb for $15? I would like to know so I can stop spending $35-40 on mine.[COLOR]

 

[KellysChameleons]

I noticed you said your basking spot was 70-90 degrees...for Jacksons 90 is too hot , I wouldn't let the basking area go over 80-82 degrees ...good luck I hope she will be ok

 

[jackschamnewbie]

I was strangely just reading a post about temperature and this sudden death thing. I replaced the incdescent with a cfl in the same soft white spectrum. I can tell she knows the difference. Now she is climbing as close as she can get to the uvb lights. It's roughly 83-87 as ling as the fan is moving the air up. The high of 90 was a result of the AC failing. Do you k now of anyways to wire a kill switch for the lights onto a thermometer? Sort of how an ac unit works I guesse buy Idk. I just can't seem to stay away from super hot and dry. I need to find something like a kill switch

 

[jackschamnewbie]

I was strangely just reading a post about temperature and this sudden death thing. I replaced the incdescent with a cfl in the same soft white spectrum. I can tell she knows the difference. Now she is climbing as close as she can get to the uvb lights. It's roughly 83-87 as ling as the fan is moving the air up. The high of 90 was a result of the AC failing. Do you k now of anyways to wire a kill switch for the lights onto a thermometer? Sort of how an ac unit works I guesse buy Idk. I just can't seem to stay away from super hot and dry. I need to find something like a kill switch

 

[KellysChameleons]

Check out EcoZone , a site sponsor, they have a lot of really cool gadgets to completely control everything...When i had Jackson babies i used a humidifier in the room , but not aiming into the cage and i misted them 4-5 times a day and used the uvb bulb only and that kept the temps around 80-82 ..if that doesn't work for you , maybe try a regular 25 watt bulb from walmart , i use those on my girls in the winter months

 

[Video Master]

Not sure why people like you come on here asking for help and when given help on what to change you pretty much ignore it and tell the people off.

Your setup is a disaster. I go through maybe 1 gallon of water a week and that is overkill. Your misting setup sounds like it is not a good and should be changed.

You say that your UVB should cover up to 12 inches, having the UVB go through the screen cuts it by at least half. But you must already know that because you have done all your research and know everything.

Well, if you know everything, then you would not have killed off a chameleon and be here asking for help.

 

[jackschamnewbie]

Check out EcoZone , a site sponsor, they have a lot of really cool gadgets to completely control everything...When i had Jackson babies i used a humidifier in the room , but not aiming into the cage and i misted them 4-5 times a day and used the uvb bulb only and that kept the temps around 80-82 ..if that doesn't work for you , maybe try a regular 25 watt bulb from walmart , i use those on my girls in the winter months

That website is freaking awesome. I really had no idea people had taken that idea to that much of an extreme. I was looking into programming arduino and wiring breakout boards to offer more control but the vivarium controller offers everything I could ever want or need to do in one nice neat little package...
I will and get one as soon as possible. I really appreciate that bit of info

 

[Olimpia]

Woah, what happened with this thread? Everyone needs to watch their tone. The passive aggressive thing is unnecessary.


To the OP - in my opinion, if you're doing lots of misting I don't place as much value on relative humidity. I would never want the humidity in an enclosure to be constantly super high all day long, because that's not natural and can be worse, health-wise than too little. Even in rainforests it spikes and drops throughout the day. Is the 30% an average or is that really as high as it gets all day long? Even so, with the long mistings that you're doing I wouldn't worry too much, personally, because she's still getting plenty of water to soak in, rinse her eyes, etc.

That said, I'd get any timer at Home Depot/Lowe's so you're not forced to do the 15 min sessions. I don't know if you've been able to cut down the lengths, I read all the comments but it got confusing for a second.

Covering the cage sides is a great idea. On my cages I covered the entire back and 3/4 of the two sides, leaving the bottom 12" (I use the 4' tall cages) open for air exchange, along with the entire front and top. This helps both humidity but allowing the floor of the cage to dry quickly.

Is the floor screen or not? I'm having a hard time understanding what is going on with the floor where water is pooling and food is rotting because I thought the floor was screen. Run that by me again and I might have ideas to fix it.

 

[jackschamnewbie]

Not sure why people like you come on here asking for help and when given help on what to change you pretty much ignore it and tell the people off.

Your setup is a disaster. I go through maybe 1 gallon of water a week and that is overkill. Your misting setup sounds like it is not a good and should be changed.

You say that your UVB should cover up to 12 inches, having the UVB go through the screen cuts it by at least half. But you must already know that because you have done all your research and know everything.

Well, if you know everything, then you would not have killed off a chameleon and be here asking for help.

What exactly do you suggest I do with the lights to prevent half of the uvb from being blocked by the screen? They are already sitting 1.5" from the top which is the closest they can get without the risk of burns. Do you recommend I put them inside the enclosure?

 

[jackschamnewbie]

Woah, what happened with this thread? Everyone needs to watch their tone. The passive aggressive thing is unnecessary.


To the OP - in my opinion, if you're doing lots of misting I don't place as much value on relative humidity. I would never want the humidity in an enclosure to be constantly super high all day long, because that's not natural and can be worse, health-wise than too little. Even in rainforests it spikes and drops throughout the day. Is the 30% an average or is that really as high as it gets all day long? Even so, with the long mistings that you're doing I wouldn't worry too much, personally, because she's still getting plenty of water to soak in, rinse her eyes, etc.

That said, I'd get any timer at Home Depot/Lowe's so you're not forced to do the 15 min sessions. I don't know if you've been able to cut down the lengths, I read all the comments but it got confusing for a second.

Covering the cage sides is a great idea. On my cages I covered the entire back and 3/4 of the two sides, leaving the bottom 12" (I use the 4' tall cages) open for air exchange, along with the entire front and top. This helps both humidity but allowing the floor of the cage to dry quickly.

Is the floor screen or not? I'm having a hard time understanding what is going on with the floor where water is pooling and food is rotting because I thought the floor was screen. Run that by me again and I might have ideas to fix it.

30% is highest level it reached at approx 10m after misting without the fogger. I re tested with plants on both sides to slow air flow and only bumped it up to 32%. I have not tried to cover the sides with anything else.

What should I try to cover them with and how much of the 30" do I cover?

The humidity naturally sits around 20-40 during the night when everything is turned off. There is a high point during the last misting of the evening of up to 80%. The humidity varies all day relative to the temp outside and the time it is between mistings.

I was able to get a timer for lowes actually but it is only capable of 2 cycles for one day and a 5m minimum. I have the morning set at 10m and 15m around 3pm. The last cycle of the day is triggered and timed by hand but all the water is evaporating between cycles now.

The floor is completely screen with comp fans at the base of the drainage ramp that blow up into the enclosure. There are drops that collect underneath the humidifier and stick in the holes of the screen, but the major it is drying up rather quickly.

Humidi is sitting at 38% and 80ºF at the warmest basking spot. The reduction of the incandescent to a CFL helped incredibly with humidity and temperature.

The pictures show an example of the fans,
What the bottom looking like before the fans
What is causing the water to collect in that spot
And what it looks like now that the fans are in place

 

[Saldarya]

I was strangely just reading a post about temperature and this sudden death thing. I replaced the incdescent with a cfl in the same soft white spectrum. I can tell she knows the difference. Now she is climbing as close as she can get to the uvb lights. It's roughly 83-87 as ling as the fan is moving the air up. The high of 90 was a result of the AC failing. Do you k now of anyways to wire a kill switch for the lights onto a thermometer? Sort of how an ac unit works I guesse buy Idk. I just can't seem to stay away from super hot and dry. I need to find something like a kill switch

Here you go

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Suncourt...Sensitive-Switch-DS100/100028788#.Uf57_m1Cohm

 

[ataraxia]

Your doing a good job, the baby death may not actually be because of your care honestly. Some just dont make it for what ever reason. It is great you have done research on the areas and are trying to replicate. The down side to small captive habitats is that we are not able to replicate in most typical sized rooms is the open fresh air, natural circulation being caused by wind, heat and cold, fluctuation like it is in nature. No matter how we try it just wont work as to many factors play a part in the animals natural habitat. In captivity we are able to make life just "suitable" and it is exactly that versus being in nature.

Chameleons have been a part of captive keeping for over 20 years now. Over these years many well known keepers tried many variables and have come to the care standards we have now that work in managable small captive environments. Not zoo size environments, just what a typical keeper is able to purchase.

Changing the babies enclosure for the time being has many benefits. You can go back to the cage you have now once one is large enough but for now the plastic totes help keep humidity, make it much easier/efficient for the young one to feed, less feeder escapes, more target feeder reach the animal versus hiding in a big cage, etc. This will give you time to fine tune your big cage environment.

 

[Saldarya]

Ill start for apologizing for going off on you, not my normal MO....

Anyhow,

Here is an example of a tote set up you Ataraxia mentioned. You could certainly replace some of the bottom with screen of you need, but you will likely not have the humidity issues with something like this.

To that point, you may not need to mist as often, which will help you reduce the water output.





One other thing you might want to consider on the full time cage, is make the live plants fill the upper half of the cage, this again will help retain humidity higher up.

Here is an example of a cage that I use for a montane species that requires high humidity. Like you it has a screen bottom as I put a lot of water through the cage.



To cover the screen there are a coup of options I have used best, both inexpensive. A shower curtain, or foamboard that you can get at a craft store like Hobby Lobby. cut them to leave a gap at the bottom of the cage of a few inches, this will help get airflow through the cage.

The covering of the sides will likely help the humidity a ton and allow you to cut down on the amount of water being used.

 

[nick barta]

Some thoughts......Your first chameleon died within six days. I would not beat myself up on why he died, I would not pinpoint it to the water/dead bug pool issue. The death was not your husbandry practices.

Chameleons die for a variety of reasons, and without an autopsy, we should not assume it was the excessive water, UVB, etc. In this case, even with an autopsy, we would not be able to link it to any of your husbandry practices; he wasn't in the environment you created long enough to cause death.

Your attention to detail and ability to set up a healthy environment is commendable. I think some of the best keepers have great attention to detail, with the drive being how to replicate the correct conditions for the chameleon.

I think you will find that when you get input that brings up defensiveness inside you, wether it appears to you to be expressed rudely, or in a condescending tone, it is best to not respond negatively. Negative response does not help the communication, or render better solutions.

I wish you the best with your female Jackson. An investment of a qualified chameleon vet visit would be worth not going through a second death. At least something to consider, as the male died so quickly....

Nick

 

[Olimpia]

In a cage that's 30" tall then leave only the bottom 7-10" uncovered. For me, having the bottom 1/4th uncovered has helped quite a bit (I also do long mistings, as I have a Meller's) so I never have standing water on the floor for long at all.

I have my cages flush side-by-side, so aesthetics weren't very important on the sides. So on the sides I used transluscent painter's plastic from Lowe's taped to the frame (I like that it still lets light through, but the chameleons cannot see each other and the humidity lingers longer) and on the back (which is more visible) I used a nicer material. It's really up to you, but plastic in one form or another works very well.