Sherman Has MBD. Please help us!

[QSurferQ]

I bought Sherman about two months ago from PetSmart. He is a juvenile veiled chameleon. He was very healthy for the first two months: walking well, hunting food, perching high to sleep, changing colors to match numerous fauna. I noticed a week ago that he wasn't moving much, and was huddled in one spot. Then I noticed that he would get "stuck" in different places in the cage, and that I would have to help him out of that spot. Just this past weekend, I noticed he was on the bottom of his cage, which he never is, and he was having a hard time getting around. When I took him out, I noticed that the bones in his front legs looked bent (or even broken), and he wasn't placing his back legs very well. I knew that MBD was a concern, but I've been giving him calcium-covered crickets a couple times a week, and all day long I've had two UVB 5.0 compact lights shining on him.

I was really concerned that he might not make it, so I had my wife take him to a reptile vet yesterday. The vet looked him over, and didn't believe that he has any broken bones, but an obvious calcium deficiency. He prescribed a minute amount of anti-inflammatory to be taken once every 24 hours, and a mix of carnivore/omnivore supplement that I give him every six hours. The supplement is injected in his mouth with a syringe, and is an additional supplement of calcium in his diet. I read on another post that he should be in a "hospital" cage; essentially remove all the high, vertical items that he could climb and fall from and put a towel in the bed of the cage. So I did that, and he's not necessarily happy, but safer.

I think I've done most of the steps that I could to make him more comfortable and to hopefully help him recover, but I have some additional, specific questions that I haven't been able to find answers to yet.

1. He doesn't appear to be eating, or interested in food, so how do I get him to eat? I'm pretty sure that the supplements I'm giving him aren't the only food he's supposed to be eating.

2. I read in a post that compact UVBs were not recommended; I have a 18 wide x 18 deep x 24 tall terrarium with two Exo Terra UVB100 compact lights, as well as a 75w heat lamp (dark one for the night). Should I switch out my compacts for long tubes? If so, what is optimal for my setup?

3. What else can I do to make him more comfortable, and to help him hopefully recover?

Thanks for the assistance. I've had numerous reptiles in my past, but this is my first experience with an old-world chameleon, and I really want him to be OK.

Chameleon Info:

Sherman - Male, veiled chameleon. I've had him about two months, and he's about 10" long. If I had to guess, he was in the store for maybe two months before that. Maybe he's six months old?

Handling - I probably handled him every other day. He seemed to enjoy being handled. He would volunteer to walk onto my hand as I was feeding him mealworms out of my hand. He's usually bright green when he's being handled.

Feeding - I am feeding him crickets, mealworms, and waxworms. Probably 4-6 crickets a day, 4-6 mealworms a day, and 2 waxworms every 2-3 days. Usually a few crickets in the morning, a few more in the evening, and mealworms/waxworms sporadically throughout the day. I'm using water and Fluker's orange cubes to gut-load the crickets.

Supplements - A couple days a week I've been dusting crickets with ZooMed Repti-Calcium.

Watering - Misting is done with the Exo Terra Monsoon RS400, Every 4 hours for about 8 seconds. I also have an Exo Terra medium waterfall from which I've seen him drinking.
Fecal Description - He's never been tested for parasites. His feces is brown with a small white piece at the end.
History - None that I know of.

Cage Info:

Cage Type - Glass cage, 18x18x24 tall. screen top.

Lighting - Exo Terra UVB100 Compact x 2, 0700-2100 each day. Exo Terra Sun Glo 60w day heat lamp, 0700-2100 each day. Zilla night black heat lamp, 75w, 2100-0700.

Temperature - 79deg bottom of cage, 89deg top of cage, humidity 56%. Minimum overnight is 73deg. Measured with in-cage thermometers/hygrometer.

Humidity - Humidity is created by automatic mister.

Plants - No live plants

Placement - Cage is placed in the corner of my study where I work. Low-trafic area, with moderate air flow. Top of the cage is about 4.5' about floor.

Location - I'm located in Currituck, NC, Near the mid-Atlantic coast.

Current Problem - See above.

 

[shmeenakoz]

Hi first off your temps are too hot for a juvie, next thing is you need to dust with plain calcium every feeding!!! Please refer to the care sheets on this site for your cham. This will give you a good start point. Then using the search on this forum, search MBD and read all you can about it (how to stop it from advancing, what you must do in terms of fixing your husbandry, etc.). Did the vet take x-rays to be sure of bone density? Hope this helps!

 

[Andee]

What kinds of calcium do you have? Do you have any calcium with D3 or multivitamin? These are extremely important to stop the progress of MBD. I would also start feeding phoenix worms, or silkworms they are high in calcium and can help stop the spread of mbd. You need to dust EVERY day with regular calcium phosphorus free. Then two days a month with D3 and two days a month with multi-vit. Fluker's orange cubes are not a good supplement at all, if you want to feed without a supplement schedule (which is not possible anymore) you need a good gutload.

No light at night. No matter what kind, they can stand temps down to 65 degrees. Yes to switching out your compacts to long tubes, it will stop possible eye problems.

Get rid of the waterfall, it's a breeding ground for bacteria, and increase the misting sessions for at least a minute. He also needs a bigger cage or will soon, he's about the age when he needs an "big boy" cage. So at least 2'x2'x4'.

 

[Lovereps]

Welcome to the forum!
Sorry your cham is having problems.
The things you've done so far to address the MBD are good and there are some more things you can do, as well.
This excellent post was written by a veterninarian who is also a fellow chamkeeper and forum member:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/what-metabolic-bone-disease-mbd-looks-like-how-happens-how-fix-95071/

Often a vet will give a calcium injection.
Did your vet do that?

I would buy calcium liquid/calcium syrup at a chemist, pharmacy, whatever a store that sells health products is called in your area.
It's calcium syrup made for humans.
Calcium glubionate is sold as Neo Calglucon or Calcionate in the US and Canada.
The brand name is not important.
Give 1 drop of calcium liquid in the morning.
Then give the other drop later in the day.
Don't give extra other than 2 drops each day and the calcium dust on his food.

The safest way for your cham to get the UVB he needs is exposure to unfiltered sunlight when outside temperatures are good.
If you want to, he can have some supervised outdoor time for some sunshine or sit on a towel next to a screen in a window with the glass up.
His body will use the sun's uvb to make all of its own vitamin D3 to exactly the levels he needs.

Chams in climates where they live outdoors don't get calcium with D3 because of this.
It is important that the temps not be too hot or too cold for him.

Phoenixworms are an excellent idea because they are very high in calcium and they're wiggly, so they can often entice a cham to eat.
I get mine from here http://www.phoenixworm.com/servlet/the-template/comparison/Page

Next, you want to determine how your cham developed MBD.

Does he get calcium with D3 2x each month (more often is not better)?
Is there any glass or plastic between his UVB bulb and the basking spot? Sometimes the fixtures come with a plastic cover, which must be removed to allow UV through.

There are a couple of nutritious gutloads available and you can use both of these or make your own with veggie scraps like this https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/835-simple-gutload-bug-food.html
http://www.amazon.com/Repashy-Bug-Burger-Insect-Food/dp/B00IOUF3V4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409769662&sr=8-1&keywords=Cricket+Crack

http://tikitikireptiles.com/products.php?id=48

Appetite loss is common with MBD because the muscles needed to catch, chew, swallow and digest aren't working right --all muscles require calcium to function (including the heart).

He may accept bugs held close enough for him to just bite, instead of having to get them with his tongue.

 

[Djturna4thakidz]

You do not need two compacts. If it was me, I would trash the compacts and go with a reptisun linear bulb. I also recommend just using a regular household incandescent bulb, prob 40-60 watts based on your temps. Can you post pictures?

 

[Djturna4thakidz]

The incandescent bulb would replace your basking bulb

 

[QSurferQ]

Thanks to everyone for the advice thus far. Since yesterday's post, I've done the following:

1. Since I can't get him to take any kind of feeders, even when held in front of him for several minutes, I decided to ensure he got calcium with D3 by adding it to the mixture of food/supplement that the vet prescribed. Initially, I thought that the vet just prescribed supplement, but after reading the packages, it appears to be a full, balanced dietary food (1.5ml of this fed to him four times a day). So hopefully he's getting a balanced diet as well as calcium and D3 as necessary.

2. I replaced the compact UVB lights with an 18", 15 watt, 50 UVB long tube light. As I read the amount of UVB each light put out, and considered the distance to the bottom of his cage (24", since he's not climbing right now), it seemed like the better choice was to go with a desert UVB (50 UVB) vs. a tropical UVB (25 UVB). I removed the plastic under the light fixture to ensure it is direct light.

3. I had removed everything from his cage except a towel in the bottom, but he was really miserable. Granted, he can't climb, but he can still get around, so I pulled out the towel, put a soft cage mat down in the bottom, and put one of his climbing vines on the bottom so that he had something to grab and pull around on.

4. The calcium I've been using for him is phosphate-free, with D3 supplement, so I already had what I needed there.

5. I read extensively on all the recommended links on chameleonforums for MBD, to get as much knowledge I can on the topic.

6. I ordered a batch of phoenix worms (I hope he's taking food soon).

7. I ordered calcionate syrup and that should be in tomorrow.

8. I increased the misting time to 1 minute every four hours.

9. I removed the waterfall.

10. I have a larger screen cage (24"x24"x48") saved in my Amazon cart to purchase when he's healthy again.

11. I turned off the light at night so that it's completely dark and cooler at night.

12. I ordered the bug burger gut load for my feeders (should be in tomorrow).

The vet did not do a calcium injection, nor an x-ray. It was rainy today, but tomorrow should offer some sunshine, so I plan to get him out in the sun tomorrow, with a shady area to retreat to if he desires. I continue to feed him what was prescribed by the doctor, and I chose to put splints on the long bones of his front legs (used cut sections of my platypus water hose). He doesn't like the splints, but I'm already seeing results. Before the splints, he would accidentally grab his head with his right front leg. Now, when he goes to place it, it's closer to where he wants to place it. If his irritation with them persists, I was going to take them off of him tomorrow.

I was concerned that he had not excreted in the last 2-3 days, so I was heartened when he pooed today. It was a large one, which still had a lot of bark fragments (the previous cage substrate) in it, which I know he hasn't eaten in close to a week. So I have a hypothesis that he might not have been getting nourishment he needed as well because he had much bark that he can't digest in his system. I noticed when I was cleaning feces and the substrate out of his cage that each of his excrements had pieces of bark in them ranging from small (smaller than a mealworm) to large (larger than a medium-sized cricket). This certainly couldn't have been helping his digestion and processing of nutrients.

While he's by no means well, he does appreciate being held and attended to. He seems much more peaceful and happy when he's cradled in my hand.

Any additional advice is appreciated, although there is a wealth of advice to be found from previous posts. I'll continue to post updates. Thanks again.

 

[kinyonga]

Please look in he list of ingredients on what the vet gave you to feed him...look for prEformed vitamin A and D3 and calcium and phosphorous.

 

[QSurferQ]

Here's Sherman a few days after bringing him home for the first time:

Here are shots of him with MBD today - 4 September 2014:

 

[QSurferQ]

Please look in he list of ingredients on what the vet gave you to feed him...look for prEformed vitamin A and D3 and calcium and phosphorous.

I reviewed the ingredients; calcium, phosphorous, and vitamin D3 are included (not preformed?), but I didn't see vitamin A listed.

 

[kinyonga]

You're making me work at this!

Did the vet says to give the chameleon the calcium with D3 at each feeding get?? If not I would only use calcium because the ingredients list D3 in it....you don't want to over do the D3 supplements. I wish it said what the ratio of what the D3 was compared to the vitamin A and what the source of the vitamin A is.

 

[chevycham]

Wow this is seriously like looking at my Chevy! I am so sorry to hear or read for that matter that he is not feeling well. I could go into a rant about PetsMart as that is where our problem also began, but its not worth the time. Take a look if and when you have time at my photos of Chevy about 2 weeks ago. He looked almost Identical to Sherman. Don't give up hope and keep trucking! I love this forum! GUTLOAD GUTLOAD GUTLOAD, SUPPLEMENTS and the proper husbandry. I am going to post pics of Chevy from today. With A LOT of effort, care and not willing to throw in the towel, he is dance walking again, he runs up his vines now, changes funky colors that are just too funny (like a spotted cheetah), his crown has straightened up, he began shedding today, he is eating like a Cham Piggy, and I couldn't have done it without multiple people's help from this forum. Just follow these nice folks guidance, MBD is serious if it is not treated properly. You can't reverse most of the damage, but you can give him a good quality of life. All you can do at the end of the day is wait to see what will happen. These past 2 weeks have been horrible wondering if Chevy was going to make it, believe me, I feel your pain. Please let me know how Sherman is doing in a few days.

 

[QSurferQ]

Did the vet says to give the chameleon the calcium with D3 at each feeding get?? If not I would only use calcium because the ingredients list D3 in it....you don't want to over do the D3 supplements. I wish it said what the ratio of what the D3 was compared to the vitamin A and what the source of the vitamin A is.

Sorry that I haven't gotten back recently, but it's been a busy week. The vet did not say to give him calcium with D3 at each feeding. After reading about the potential for vitamin toxicity, I made sure to *not* give him calcium with D3 except on the 15th and 30th of each month. I have been adding calcium without D3 to each meal mixture, and he's been receiving the the calcionate syrup drop twice a day. I've been feeding him 3-4 times a day with the mixture through a syringe, and I've been trying to get him in direct sunlight for several hours a day, with a box which also gives him the option to crawl into a shady spot. He's been enjoying that.

He is now excreting on a regular basis; once every day or two. They are large and stinky, but they look like they should. He doesn't like taking the food/medicine/calcionate from the syringe, so it takes a fair amount of coaxing and prying to get him to open up. His Phoenix Worms arrived yesterday, and I was able to get his mouth open and have two of them crawl into his mouth. At first, he just sat there with them hanging half out of his mouth. If I pushed them in a little further, he would eat them. He still won't take any feeders voluntarily, no matter how close, how long I wait, or how tempting they may or may not be.

He did start molting about three days ago, so I think he is getting nutrition and growing, but he still drags himself around on the ground with his legs. I'm convinced that both his front legs are broken; the bends in them look too bad to just be bent, and his grip is very weak with them. His back legs grip is pretty good. If I'm watching TV in the evening, he likes to lay on my chest and just be attended to. He'll fall asleep this way for about an hour.

Lastly, I just got his "big boy" cage in - a screened 2'x2'x4' tall enclosure, and I'm positioning it in my study so that he can get direct sunlight for a couple hours each morning. That's it for now. Hopefully he'll pull through and we'll be happy again. Thanks for all the advice, help, and well-wishes.