Something is wrong with my veiled chameleon, but cant get answers.

[karma12]

I bought a 6mnth old veiled, Karma, in Dec. New to the chameleon spectrum, but have read up on a lot. I was given a lot of wrong info from the pet store. She was doing well and then started digging in her cage and earing a lot. I read up on her behavior & made a lay bin. She never layed eggs & she seemed to be declining, not eating, lethargic. Took her to the vet & the gave her calcium & some fluids. Had an ultrasound and no eggs or impaction. Thought maybe ger husbandry since store told me to buy aquarium. Bought a huge screened in cage, live plants and started giving her Oxbow since shes not really eating. By the way, shes always dark dark green, sometimes almost black. At times I think shes dead She had some diarrhea and inflammation at the rectum, thought prolapse. Rushed her to the vet, he gave her sugar water and was able to push it back. 2 days later she was sticking her tongue out slightly. Called vet, he thinks its all hormonal related & suggests spade and putting her back in the aquarium to see if her environment stressed her. Its been a few weeks & no change. Shw just lays around, usually on the bottom & always daek in color. Shell eat a cricket every once in a while. Still gettin Oxbow 2-3/day. She does lay at her water bowl & drink. Doesnt really drink from leaves. Feces still not normal & this morning her urine was greenish. I read it could possibly be liver failure. I am at my wits end & feel terrible for her. I dont know what to do. I would love some input from some experienced owners. I dont want her to be suffering.

 

[sharp229]

Sorry your chameleon is going through this Could you fill out (copy and paste) the form below and post some pictures of both your cham and cage?

https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

This will help people get a better understanding of what is going on.

 

[Carlton]

I bought a 6mnth old veiled, Karma, in Dec. New to the chameleon spectrum, but have read up on a lot. I was given a lot of wrong info from the pet store. She was doing well and then started digging in her cage and earing a lot. I read up on her behavior & made a lay bin. She never layed eggs & she seemed to be declining, not eating, lethargic. Took her to the vet & the gave her calcium & some fluids. Had an ultrasound and no eggs or impaction. Thought maybe ger husbandry since store told me to buy aquarium. Bought a huge screened in cage, live plants and started giving her Oxbow since shes not really eating. By the way, shes always dark dark green, sometimes almost black. At times I think shes dead She had some diarrhea and inflammation at the rectum, thought prolapse. Rushed her to the vet, he gave her sugar water and was able to push it back. 2 days later she was sticking her tongue out slightly. Called vet, he thinks its all hormonal related & suggests spade and putting her back in the aquarium to see if her environment stressed her. Its been a few weeks & no change. Shw just lays around, usually on the bottom & always daek in color. Shell eat a cricket every once in a while. Still gettin Oxbow 2-3/day. She does lay at her water bowl & drink. Doesnt really drink from leaves. Feces still not normal & this morning her urine was greenish. I read it could possibly be liver failure. I am at my wits end & feel terrible for her. I dont know what to do. I would love some input from some experienced owners. I dont want her to be suffering.

What is "Oxbow"? Doesn't sound as if its providing very good nutrition and may be causing more harm than good. We really need the detailed information about your setup, dusting, gutloading, humidity levels, type of lighting etc. in order to figure out what's going on and how best to help her.

 

[karma12]

Sorry, guys. Im really new at this. I wasn't aware of what was expected. Thank you for your help.

Your Chameleon - Veiled, 9 month old female, I have had her since xmas.
Handling - not at all at first, but since shes been lethargic maybe every other day and she changes from black to her regular light green when held and then falls asleep.
Feeding - was crickets and mealworms every other day dusted with calcium. Stopped eating the worms and went from 10-15 crickets to 1-2 somedays. Gets Oxbow supplement from the Vet with all the nutrients she needs.
Supplements - Exoterra calcium daily and vitamin 1x week.
Watering - misting the plants 2-3/day have a dripper, she likes to drink from her water dish.
Fecal Description - changes, sometimes looks ok, had diarrhea, now black, but last one looked slimy, not normal..
History - detailed hx is above. Was good for 2 months and then changed as I stated. Lethargic, not eating. Was also tested for parasite.
Cage Info: Has vines, fake and real plants. Originally had echo earth substrate in aquar. and found out to not have anything. Screen cage has fake green turf. Was told to put newspaper as substrate in aquar. since she keeps laying on the bottom. Driftwood.
Cage Type - Was glass aquarium as told to buy from store and then put her in a 24x24x36 screen, now back in aquarium per vet.
Lighting - basking 75watt and UVB 50 watt. No night light since our house temp does not go below 50 degrees, typically 70 deg.
Temperature - 80 at basking and 70 down low and at night. I have a thermometers one near his basking spot.
Humidity - varies 50-80 since this time of year is so dry in Jersey.
Plants - Banana tree, 2 others that I forget the name, but checked their safety when purchased.
Placement - Bedroom, very quiet, screen cage on floor since its so big. But back in aquarium(due to vets recommendation)on top of bureau.
Location -South Jersey

I hope this helps, Im sure I forgot something. I know its confusing since the vet told us to put her back in the aquar. I think switching her back and forth is only going to stress her more. Even with the meal supplement from the vet she is losing weight. I dont know what to do. I cant get the pic to download, but could text it to someone interested in seeing it.

 

[Restricted E]

What exactly is oxbow? Is it a liquid? This might be why she is having diarrhea. Is this the only thing she is "eating" right now? How often is the vet giving her this?

 

[karma12]

Ox bow was prescribed by the Vet. It is an assist feeding formula for carnivores. 50/50 powder/water 1ml 3/day. She hasn't had diarrhea in about 2-3 weeks. If she wasn't getting this she would probably be dead because she is not eating normally.

Got the pic to download. This was taken about 3wks ago. She seemed to be doing better then, climbing, basking, hiding in the tree and then all the sudden started staying at the bottom. More lethargic now.

 

[Veiled Dinkin]

I'm not an expert but I know that chameleons are not carnivours, they are insectivores so my guess is that could some how be affecting the health.

 

[Restricted E]

Ox bow was prescribed by the Vet. It is an assist feeding formula for carnivores. 50/50 powder/water 1ml 3/day. She hasn't had diarrhea in about 2-3 weeks. If she wasn't getting this she would probably be dead because she is not eating normally.

Got the pic to download. This was taken about 3wks ago. She seemed to be doing better then, climbing, basking, hiding in the tree and then all the sudden started staying at the bottom. More lethargic now.

Hmmm, when you got the live plants did you replant them in new soil and rinse them off really well?

Could you get some close up pictures of your cham?

 

[karma12]

I checked into it before feeding her and found this:

Chameleons are omnivores, meaning they eat plant and animal matter. Some chameleons are strict carnivores and will only eat small animals, insects and other small invertebrates. A wild chameleon's diet usually consists of flies, worms, beetles, spiders, small birds, lizards and rodents. A wild chameleon also will eat berries and greens on occasion

I did wash the plants out completely, got rid of all original soil and washed them in soap/water and rinsed well. Replanted with organic soil. She starting with these symptoms prior to the plants also. She originally has fake. Lights out for her now. But I will take a close up tomorrow or see if I can find a recent.

 

[Restricted E]

I'm not an expert but I know that chameleons are not carnivours, they are insectivores so my guess is that could some how be affecting the health.

This.

I would try to find out what exactly is in that stuff. There are many vets that think they know what they are doing with chams, but really don't. I'm not saying this is the case.

 

[Restricted E]

I checked into it before feeding her and found this:

Chameleons are omnivores, meaning they eat plant and animal matter. Some chameleons are strict carnivores and will only eat small animals, insects and other small invertebrates. A wild chameleon's diet usually consists of flies, worms, beetles, spiders, small birds, lizards and rodents. A wild chameleon also will eat berries and greens on occasion

Veiled chameleons actually will eat a lot of plant matter in addition to insects, so I don't know if that stuff is really good for her.

 

[karma12]

You cant really see to much in the pic, but it's a little closer. The Vet only sees lizards, i thought i could trust him. I read the back, its all nutrients. She does eat a cricket here and there, but nowhere near what she was. I am going crazy with this! I have another male that I got for valentines day that has the same environment, same everything and he is thriving! I dont know whats going on. I already spent $500 on 2 vet visits. I would like to get a second opinion, but will have to wait for finances and I am afraid it'll be too late. UUGHHH!! Thank you all so much for your input. I hope I can get her back to baseline

I know they do eat a variety of things, when they feel well, but right now shes not really eating anything so I was assuming it was better than starving, but I am no expert either. Im stumped...

 

[Restricted E]

I don't really know then. Did he check to see if anything was broken? Or if she has gout? or xray for MBD? Other than that I am not sure, hopefully someone else will chime in!

 

[SaintJimmy]

Here is my advice: Find a good reptile veterinarian.

Your poor girl has a SEVERE case of MBD, she cannot hold herself up on the few branches you have provided for her, so she is on the floor, looking sad like that.

Usually vets would give you something like calcium glubonate for MBD, I've never heard of Oxbow on here.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/healthx/vet/

 

[Devokid]

Ox bow was prescribed by the Vet. It is an assist feeding formula for carnivores. 50/50 powder/water 1ml 3/day. She hasn't had diarrhea in about 2-3 weeks. If she wasn't getting this she would probably be dead because she is not eating normally.

Got the pic to download. This was taken about 3wks ago. She seemed to be doing better then, climbing, basking, hiding in the tree and then all the sudden started staying at the bottom. More lethargic now.

This is a pretty sorry set up. The entire enclosure should be filled with plants, vines, walkways, etc. allowing your chameleon to access all the space. It doesn't matter how big your cage is if it is empty. Also the tube UVB lighting works much better for me than the coils.

 

[Carlton]

Here is my advice: Find a good reptile veterinarian.

Your poor girl has a SEVERE case of MBD, she cannot hold herself up on the few branches you have provided for her, so she is on the floor, looking sad like that.

Usually vets would give you something like calcium glubonate for MBD, I've never heard of Oxbow on here.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/healthx/vet/

I think I agree with this. The diet she's been getting is not correct for an insectivore. You would be better off making what we call "bug juice" for her (check the forum for the recipe). The carnivore diet is probably too high in protein (and the wrong proteins) and the wrong balance of calcium, phosphorus, and vitamins for an insectivore. The assist feed isn't meant to be used for more than a few days at a time.

What is the brand of the UV light? Most do not produce the correct part of the UV spectrum for chams. Incorrect lighting will not permit her to metabolize the vitamin D or calcium in her diet well, even if the diet was OK. This leads to MBD. Please check the brand and output. It should be printed on the bulb.

What are you feeding your insects? Gut contents probably matter more than supplement dusting. Most places you buy crickets from don't feed them well. The old chunk of potato, cricket cubes, or a carrot isn't nearly good enough. You need to feed them up a few days before your cham eats them. Does the calcium dust you use have added vitamin D3? If it does, you shouldn't be using it more than twice a month. For a healthy cham (I'm thinking of your other cham now), dust lightly with plain calcium every feeding, use calcium with D3 twice a month, and use a herp multivitamin twice a month. Eventually he could decline as she has if the balance of nutrition and lighting isn't correct.

 

[karma12]

Thanks guys. I am waiting for the vet to call me back, again. He is a reptilian vet. As far as her environment, yes, I am still working on getting it filled with more vines etc. Like I said, she was moved from a much smaller cage that was filled to the brim with braches, plants, vines & just moved back to the smaller one per the vets recommendation. We are still learning as we just got her & was misinformed by the store on her environment. We're trying to do the best we can for her.

 

[Muddyfeet]

here is the product info http://www.oxbowanimalhealth.com/vets/products/carnivore_care

His vet is not the only one using it, mine also sells it..

Did the vet do any bloodwork? discuss husbandry? supplements??

Fecal??

May be seeing something that was coming but the stress of laying really took a toll..
I agree.. suspect MBD..

 

[karma12]

They did not do any bloodwork, only fecal for parasite & ultrasound. We did discuss husbandry & that's why she has been switched between cages. We talked about supplements as far as calcium & the critical care supplement he prescribed.

She never layed. The ultrasound showed no eggs.

After MBD was mentioned, I researched it & think it's quite possible. I took her for a second opinion last night & they didn't have calcium in the office so they just gave her fluids. I made another appointment for tomorrow with another retilian vet to get some calcitonin or something & discuss treatment. I gave her some dusted crickets today & she ate 2 immediately. She also had climbed on some vines. Thinking the fluids helped a bit, but she still needs care.

In any event I'm just really disgusted that the store I bought her from have me all the wrong info regarding health & care. They are not even giving them the right carer in the store so when they are purchased they are already calcium depleted. She was in a tiny 1x1x1 classed-in aquariam, no UVB, only basking & a red night light & no calcium supplements. I'm writing to their corporate office, not that they'll listen, but one can only hope.

 

[karma12]

update

Not sure if anyone is interested in an update, but back from a third opinion today. Finally got bloodwork & calcium is a bit low & phosphorus is high. Also she is a little anemic with decreased RBC. They are not sure why, possible from her trying to heal herself. She has an old fracture in her back leg that healed already & formed calcifications so it cannot be fixed. Had to happen at the pet store since it already is at that stage which means she was already calcium deficient when I bought her. She was given an antibiotic which I have to inject in her every 3 days, more fluids, drop off calcium, & a shot of vitamins. I was also told that crickets & mealworms are at the bottom of their feeding list due to lack of calcium & high fat content which can cause kidney failure. They should be on a high calcium, low fat & phosphorus diet. Hornworms, Reptiworms, & Butterworms are the best diet, which I ordered today from Mulberryfarms.com. She is also to stay on the OxBow Carnivore Care Supplement.

We are praying she gains some strength back & recovers. She's definitely not out of the woods yet.

I also called the corporate office of the pet store to advise them that these delicate animals are not being cared for properly in their store & are being sold already having undetectable issues. I'm sure nothing will come of it. I am so saddened & mad everytime I walk in there & see them without UVB or supplements being given!!!