Standing water and chameleons

[broderp]

Every one knows that standing water is bad as it collects fungus, bacteria or what ever else that can then be inhaled by our little guys.

BUT....

In my research on misting using such items as a Mist King or even those of us such as myself who use a Humidifier to keep the humidity level up, we all use a reservoir or tank of some type to store the water used.

How is this any different than the standing water at the bottom of a tank that is at room temp (more or less) vs. water in a bucket, tub or humidifier chamber?

It would seem to me that if we mist or humidify with this water (especially those who mist and their Chams drink this water) we are doing more harm because if its standing water at the bottom, they at least wont drink that.

Any thoughts?

 

[Michelle Maxwell]

That's a good point. I'm following this one.

 

[Shuladog]

Every one knows that standing water is bad as it collects fungus, bacteria or what ever else that can then be inhaled by our little guys.

BUT....

In my research on misting using such items as a Mist King or even those of us such as myself who use a Humidifier to keep the humidity level up, we all use a reservoir or tank of some type to store the water used.

How is this any different than the standing water at the bottom of a tank that is at room temp (more or less) vs. water in a bucket, tub or humidifier chamber?

It would seem to me that if we mist or humidify with this water (especially those who mist and their Chams drink this water) we are doing more harm because if its standing water at the bottom, they at least wont drink that.

Any thoughts?

I think that the biggest concern with water standing in the cage bottom is that it will mix with feces, dirt, dust, bugs (drowned) and anything else that falls down there, creating the so called "poop soup". That is a breeding ground for nasties. The reservoirs that store the unused water (bucket or humidifier chamber) are not exposed to all of that "stuff" but should still be cleaned on a regular basis.

 

[Virgil1972]

I also think the big worry is the water getting contaminated by the chameleon and or feeders.

 

[broderp]

I think that the biggest concern with water standing in the cage bottom is that it will mix with feces, dirt, dust, bugs (drowned) and anything else that falls down there, creating the so called "poop soup". That is a breeding ground for nasties. The reservoirs that store the unused water (bucket or humidifier chamber) are not exposed to all of that "stuff" but should still be cleaned on a regular basis.

I see your point. Can this "stew" can be carried by the air and inhaled by a Cham? I have never seen a Cham (unless sick or looking to lay eggs) really go down to the bottom very often. If the dangerous stuff not air born, some Chams may not have any adverse affects from it. (Not that I'm condoning leaving standing water in an enclosure of any kind)

I also think the big worry is the water getting contaminated by the chameleon and or feeders.

Good points as well. I'm not sure how feeders would contaminate the water to be honest. Feeders when fed will most likely have undisposed of waste in their system at the time of consumption. Poo is poo right? Unless we are saying fresh poo is better for than old poo. (I can't believe I just said that.)

 

[Virgil1972]

Good points as well. I'm not sure how feeders would contaminate the water to be honest. Feeders when fed will most likely have undisposed of waste in their system at the time of consumption. Poo is poo right? Unless we are saying fresh poo is better for than old poo. (I can't believe I just said that.)

They could poop in the water and that poop could feed bacteria growth.

 

[broderp]

They could poop in the water and that poop could feed bacteria growth.

Right, but wouldn't the Cham eat the same poop and have bacteria grow inside them? Or does ingested poo get killed by stomach acid or something?

Also, would this not be a bigger issue for those who free ranch their feeders as opposed to those of us who cup feed?

What kind of time frame are we talking about here when it comes to "standing water"? Days? Hours? At what time does it become critical? We mist and say to allow the enclosure to dry between misting's, but never say how fast or long it should take and be safe.

FYI, I'm somewhat playing the devils advocate here, as I want to try and get to a solid answer. I'm sure a final, solid answer will not ever be possible, but by asking and putting out opposing points, we can more thoroughly cover the topic. I'm concerned about any standing water in my terrarium, I have no easy way to drain it.

 

[Virgil1972]

Right, but wouldn't the Cham eat the same poop and have bacteria grow inside them? Or does ingested poo get killed by stomach acid or something?

What kind of time frame are we talking about here when it comes to "standing water"? Days? Hours? At what time does it become critical? We mist and say to allow the enclosure to dry between misting's, but never say how fast or long it should take and be safe.

I was talking about outside bacteria feeding on the poop in the water.

 

[tenchijin]

Water in a plastic container will get some bacterial growth and algae over time but it's usually harmless. Much like the pink bacterial build up you get in a toilet bowl or shower after awhile. Annoying and worth cleaning but not dangerous.

When you have biological decaying matter in water that's when things get *potentially* dangerous. Molds and bacteria can grow on that matter as it decomposes and can be toxic. When *that* matter is introduced into the water supply or food supply or air supply it's potentially dangerous. So, the solution is to avoid the conditions that would lead to it.

 

[Angelwolf]

"I have never seen a Cham (unless sick or looking to lay eggs) really go down to the bottom very often. "

My Veiled cruises his entire cage, top to bottom every day!

 

[Michelle Maxwell]

Water in a plastic container will get some bacterial growth and algae over time but it's usually harmless. Much like the pink bacterial build up you get in a toilet bowl or shower after awhile. Annoying and worth cleaning but not dangerous.

When you have biological decaying matter in water that's when things get *potentially* dangerous. Molds and bacteria can grow on that matter as it decomposes and can be toxic. When *that* matter is introduced into the water supply or food supply or air supply it's potentially dangerous. So, the solution is to avoid the conditions that would lead to it.

So that takes me to broderps question how many hours days weeks will it take to get to the danger zone if we could figure that out maybe more chams will not get RI.

I clean my mister every Saturday soak it in wster downed bleach for a house wash with soap then boil for 30/40 min the a good soap and water finish

 

[Michelle Maxwell]

So that takes me to broderps question how many hours days weeks will it take to get to the danger zone if we could figure that out maybe more chams will not get RI.

I clean my mister every Saturday soak it in water downed bleach for a hour wash with soap then boil for 30/40 min then give good soap and water finish

 

[Michelle Maxwell]

"I have never seen a Cham (unless sick or looking to lay eggs) really go down to the bottom very often. "

My Veiled cruises his entire cage, top to bottom every day!

Mine walks top to bottom all day he had fell out of his tree in the shower took him in to the vet he is fine but asked about him doing that they said he bored or needs more food but he already eats a lot

 

[Shuladog]

Right, but wouldn't the Cham eat the same poop and have bacteria grow inside them? Or does ingested poo get killed by stomach acid or something?

Also, would this not be a bigger issue for those who free ranch their feeders as opposed to those of us who cup feed?

What kind of time frame are we talking about here when it comes to "standing water"? Days? Hours? At what time does it become critical? We mist and say to allow the enclosure to dry between misting's, but never say how fast or long it should take and be safe.

FYI, I'm somewhat playing the devils advocate here, as I want to try and get to a solid answer. I'm sure a final, solid answer will not ever be possible, but by asking and putting out opposing points, we can more thoroughly cover the topic. I'm concerned about any standing water in my terrarium, I have no easy way to drain it.

Yep, I don't think there is a clear cut answer to those questions...Day's, Hours, weeks...it all depends on the exact contaminates introduced, temperature and other variables. Like most things in this hobby we just try to do the best we can for the critters and leave as little as possible to chance.

 

[tenchijin]

So that takes me to broderps question how many hours days weeks will it take to get to the danger zone if we could figure that out maybe more chams will not get RI.

I clean my mister every Saturday soak it in wster downed bleach for a house wash with soap then boil for 30/40 min the a good soap and water finish

It's an interesting question but I suspect the answer is "it depends." The amount of contaminant, the temperature, and the stage of growth and decomposition at time of introduction would *seem* to all matter.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Reinventing the wheel.

Clean your stuff regularly. These animals as well as most pets require that.

 

[broderp]

Reinventing the wheel.

Clean your stuff regularly. These animals as well as most pets require that.

Must be your go to quote. You used it here as well:https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...e-the-professionals-for-less-then-150.155909/ Post number 13.

It's a valid question, that should spark some thought and I and maybe others can learn from. Your comment is rather smug. Just be cause YOU know it, doesn't mean I do. Your answer also doesn't add anything to the conversation. I searched the forum and many threads were over 365 days old.

If you like to add any links or speak of your experience, I would love to hear it. You obviously appear to be doing something rights and your enclosure in the other thread is amazing, your response to some of these threads, not much so. Sorry.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Reinventing the wheel is my go to quote. Glad you noticed. You're asking pointless questions that seem to revolve around how long can you let something decay before it becomes a problem or am I missing the point of your original thread?

If there is a dead insect in your "Standing water" then it needs to be cleaned. Better yet, fix the habitat so there isn't any standing water. You clearly identified the issue but seem more interested in picking the minds here for a "consensus" on when it is not safe to leave it.

You're reinventing the wheel sir.

Get a habitat you can drain as needed. Hook up a filtration system. Adjust the misting schedule. Add a fan on a timer to help with evaporation. Plenty of things you could ask about, but instead you want a discussion about Chams eating poop and the bacteria growth that could result?

I see this not as a thread that helps in disseminating information, but instead as something the novice keepers might look at and take the wrong way regarding some basic husbandry lessons, lessons learned the hard way over time.

You would have done better to post a question as to "Any ideas on how to drain the standing water from my terrarium"

Cleanliness is huge when it comes to feeders, more so for some than others. Standing water too, for some species. In some it doesn't hurt with the extra humidity. In others you'll get a RI. You wonder as to letting a cage dry out between mistings. It's not about how moist or wet the cage is, it's about the humidity needs of the species a person is caring for, which varies. That too would be a better phrased question like:

"For an animal needing 50-70% humidity, what are ways to achieve that?"

You even mention in your original post you wish to play the devil's advocate, to get varying points of thought. Your response to mine, even if you didn't like it, tells me I'm wasting my time and experience here. Enjoy.

Right, but wouldn't the Cham eat the same poop and have bacteria grow inside them? Or does ingested poo get killed by stomach acid or something?

Also, would this not be a bigger issue for those who free ranch their feeders as opposed to those of us who cup feed?

What kind of time frame are we talking about here when it comes to "standing water"? Days? Hours? At what time does it become critical? We mist and say to allow the enclosure to dry between misting's, but never say how fast or long it should take and be safe.

FYI, I'm somewhat playing the devils advocate here, as I want to try and get to a solid answer. I'm sure a final, solid answer will not ever be possible, but by asking and putting out opposing points, we can more thoroughly cover the topic. I'm concerned about any standing water in my terrarium, I have no easy way to drain it.

 

[Mtnlaurel]

Ha! If you play with fire boys... lol

 

[broderp]

..blah, blah, blah ...... Your response to mine, even if you didn't like it, tells me I'm wasting my time and experience here. Enjoy.

Well at least we agree on something. You are wasting both our time. Your responses to not further the topic or expand on any relevant idea. If you can't stay on topic or don't like it, just don't post. It's simple.

I have every right to ask any question and to question the status quo and norm so that I or others can learn.


What did I learn here:

• Standing water in itself is not bad in itself
  • Unless continuously excess and beyond what the animal can safely survive in
  • Potted water from misters and humidifier DO carry bacteria and do grow bacteria or other stuff, just not in the quantitis that is typically harmful
• Bacteria or other contaminants can form or are found in standing water
  • Some of it is not harmful
• The issue of bacteria from the waste of the animal or feeders insects could affect the animal
  • Thu inhalation?
  • Thru ingestion of a contaminated feeder that it eats
  • The the decay of dead feeder insects
• Bacteria growth could take days, weeks or hours
  • the exact quantity and type of contaminant is a key factor
  • Temperature is a factor
• Bacteria and feces (thats POOP for you Old ChamKeeper lol) ingested by a Chameleon when eating live prey is different than when ingested from other sources or further contaminated sources.
• The removal of water is the safest way to prevent bacteria and sickness due to ingestion or inhalation
  • Drainage
  • Times misting (duration and frequency)
  • Type of enclosure is a factor
  • Routine cleaning

So if you took the time to read this thread, you will see there is a lot to be gathered from this thread. I bet I could further organize that into a decent little outline and with more research come up with a pretty respectable document to cover the topic. I doubt a thread titled "For an animal needing 50-70% humidity, what are ways to achieve that?" would have touched this topic.

Learning about the why things are or happen is the first step to a better understanding of how to prevent them. You gotta learn about the poop.....