Strange behavior

[Troubledluna80]

My chameleon cricket is at least 7 mouths old. I got her in the beginning of Dec as a hatchling. She was supposed to be 1-3 months old, I know now I should have never been able to buy her this early but she was so tiny I don't think she could have been. I have attached pictures of her as a baby. I have had husbandry reviewed and made the suggested changes. I'm totally willing to make more changes if necessary her life and happiness is well worth it. Ok to the strange behavior. She has been using her food cup to climb to the top screen, I have dragon stand hybrid change and full throttle feeder. 3 nights ago night I came home late after work and found her sleeping upside down on the screen. She has fallen from screen top before so I went to move her and she changed colors I've never seen before dark pissed off colors, she hissed and tried to bite me but I slowly got her down. She's climbing around cage slot more than typical. I do have bioactive set up and I dug a tunnel to make sure it's right moisture level. She also had a lot bigger white part in poop today. Usually it's only 1/4 or 1/3 of poop today it was over half urates but they were still white. Now today she's doing this mouth gaping thing, I attached pictures. I will fill out health form to make it easier to offer suggestions. She's eating still but I have read how quickly chameleons can go downhill and want to make sure there’s not something I should be doing at this moment such as taking her to the vet.

 

[Troubledluna80]

I must have accidentally attached multiple pictures but I don't know how to remove them now. Figured it out.

 

[Troubledluna80]

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care? Cricket is a Panther Chameleon. I got her in early Dec she was supposed to be 1-3 months old when I got her but she was so tiny I doubt it. She could be 7-10 months old. In my care 7 months. She hasn't paid eggs yet.
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? Only when I am taking her out of cage to modify it.
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders? Horn worms, dubia roaches, black soldier fly larva and crickets. Dubia's and crickets make up her staple food and then 2 or 3 week add the others. I still feed her everyday. I know this should be changing soon but until I got the feeder cup I was feeding her with a cup in my hand, she would only eat 3 or 4 bugs and then be done. I didn't realize that she's a shy eater and she would stop eating before she had enough. So I was Unintentionally under feeding her. She was extremely tiny. Since I’ve had to feed her cup she will now eat 15 to 20 bugs regularly and is finally growing so I disn't want to change her to every other day since she's finally growing.
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? Calcium without d-3 every feeding except the 2nd Sunday of month multivitamin and 4 Sunday I dust with calcium plus d3. I got bee pollen which I also occasionally Add to the calcium without D3.
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking? I have a masking that goes off at 7:30am, 30 minutes after lights for 3 minutes, 12pm 45 seconds, 3pm for 2 minutes, 7:30pm, 30 minutes after lights go off for 3 minutes and midnight for 2 minutes. I’ve had to adjust it several times and this seems to be keeping the appropriate humidity
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? typically dark poop with 1/4-1/3 of it consisting of White urates. today still with the same consistency but over half of it was white urates. I do get to see her drink. Sometimes she opens up her mouth and grabs the water droplets but I’ve also seen her flick her tongue to grab water droplets like she does food.
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. I was uneducated in the beginning and although I offered her as many hugs as she wanted I was doing it wrong and I fear undereating is her early life could have caused health problems. She is still pretty small.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? Dragon stand hybrid it's the 4 feet tall 2 feet wide 2 feet deep
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? Arcadia long uvb light 24 inches bought in December. Also light heat bulb, and I have a light for plants. The heat bulb is 8 inches from basking spot, uvb is also 8 inches from tallest branch.
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps? I have a Digital probe That test the humidity and temp it's a govee. Plus heat gun. Basking spot is 78 and the bottom of cage ranges from 70-72 during day. At night temp drops to between 65-70
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? Digital govee humidity tester, during day 45-70% and at night is gets up to 80%. I know it's supposed to be 100% but the cage stayed too wet when I increased misting. We do have a room humidifier that we run at night to try to increase it but 80% is the best I get.
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? Yes all live plants, 2 golden Plathos, money tree, wandering Jew, 2 Bromaids and 2 ferns. Bioactive set up with orange, blue and dwarf white isopods and tropical pink and white springtails. I have a any bag at bottom of cage filled with terrafirma from biodude with leaf litter, sphagnum moss and bamboo from biodude. I followed his video to set up bottom of cage. There's also 2 ferns in bottom but I can't remember there names they were on the approved list.
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? It is on one of the racks Bill Strand suggested in his build guide.
• Location - Where are you geographically located? Central Illinois
• I think I forgot to copy the bottom questions that asked what the problem is. Climbing all over including using full throttle feeder to climb to screen top. She's showing more orange colors and seems more aggressive. She doesn't typically show Hostility when I open cage to put food in but has been puffing up body, hissing and pretty pissed off lately. I came home late after working a double and she was sleeping upside down. I tried to gently more her down because she has fallen while climbing screen top in past week or two. I'm also concerned how small she is. Today she is on her basking bulb and periodically opening her mouth. See attached pictures above.

 

[Beman]

Can you post additional pictures of her entire enclosure. Is she gaping consistently or off and on?

Humidity is a bit high for daytime. I would try to stick closer to the 50% mark. Drop the mid day misting. With the Hyrbid you need air flow as well So if you are misting constantly with lights on it is going to create hot moist air. This can lead to an RI developing. It is better to do a longer misting in the morning and then 1 or 2 in the evening when cooler. Setting your heat fixture to a time of say 10-3pm rather then all day will allow her time to bask but also allow time for the mistings in the morning and evening.

My cham gets aggressive if he is trying to sleep and I mess with him as well. You may want to adjust the position of the feeder so she can not venture to the top. But again I would love to see pics of the entire cage lighting down to soil.

 

[Troubledluna80]

Can you post additional pictures of her entire enclosure. Is she gaping consistently or off and on?

Humidity is a bit high for daytime. I would try to stick closer to the 50% mark. Drop the mid day misting. With the Hyrbid you need air flow as well So if you are misting constantly with lights on it is going to create hot moist air. This can lead to an RI developing. It is better to do a longer misting in the morning and then 1 or 2 in the evening when cooler. Setting your heat fixture to a time of say 10-3pm rather then all day will allow her time to bask but also allow time for the mistings in the morning and evening.

My cham gets aggressive if he is trying to sleep and I mess with him as well. You may want to adjust the position of the feeder so she can not venture to the top. But again I would love to see pics of the entire cage lighting down to soil.

Thank you for your response. it’s on and off. I did have the heat lamp only set for 8am-3pm and then when I did the husbandry review here they told me that would be confusing to the Chamaeleon and that it might think it’s night time which I didn’t understand because of all the other lights But I'm new at this so I changed it as suggested. I also have a fan that one user told me to get and then I had several other people tell me not to run. I think my humidity and my plants actually dried out better when the fan was running. Here's pictures. The misting system went off a while ago so it is got water droplets on it right now.

 

[ERKleRose]

Is your substrate bag blocking the air vent at the bottom too much?

 

[Troubledluna80]

It only blocks the middle both sides are open. I originally bought a fan to help air flow.

 

[Beman]

Thank you for your response. it’s on and off. I did have the heat lamp only set for 8am-3pm and then when I did the husbandry review here they told me that would be confusing to the Chamaeleon and that it might think it’s night time which I didn’t understand because of all the other lights But I'm new at this so I changed it as suggested. I also have a fan that one user told me to get and then I had several other people tell me not to run. I think my humidity and my plants actually dried out better when the fan was running. Here's pictures. The misting system went off a while ago so it is got water droplets on it right now.

Ok so this is the thing about a forum. You are going to get newbies chiming in that really have no idea what they are talking about. So my biggest tip is under the person's name you will see their forum status. If it says New Member take that feedback with a grain of salt and wait for more feedback. Your looking for avid members and chameleon enthusiasts to chime in.

There is nothing wrong with a basking fixture being on 10-3. I run mine 10-2 only And my boy will be 3 years old in June. We are mimicking nature as close as possible. So if we apply logic the hottest part of the day in nature is typically that window of time mid day. The other lighting will produce heat on its own as well. So Mist in the morning when basking is not on. It then allows for the humidity to be higher but cooler and then the cage slowly dries out during the day. Mist about an hour or so after basking is off this way temps have reduced. And then again an hour or so later. Your misting lengths will depend on your environment and enclosure. I am running 3-4 minutes mistings 3 times a day in my hybrid DS enclosure. BUT I do not have a bio active bottom like yours. So pay attention to your set up not what we do in ours. People forget that from one set up to the next it is not the exact same ambient temps or humidity levels due to where someone may live.
Now focus on humidity in that 45-55 range daytime. It can spike after misting but you want it to fall not stay steady at 70-80% during the day.
You can add a dripper to give her an opportunity to drink mid day.

I highly recommend PC fans with a hybrid cage. These sit on top and you aim them pulling the air up and out. I do happen to run an oscillating fan in front of mine 3 feet away in the evenings blowing air on low into the service door. I want the air movement because of the higher humidity I provide at night. I do not want stagnant yucky air. This is no bueno for the cham. Again this works in my environment with my set up. But as an example I am including it.

Due to her age you have to cut back her feedings. You are creating a perfect storm for a large clutch. Kick her back down to 5 medium feeders every other day over the next 4 weeks you want to work her into 3 feeder 3 days a week only.

Can you please post a pic of your supplements so I can ensure your schedule is correct? Typically recommended is multivitamin 2 times a month and calcium with D3 2 times a month. Unless the multi has D3 in it then it would be just 2 times a month for this. So the fact that your only providing each once a month sounds like it is not correct.

Now back to the gaping because this is the area of concern for me. Is she doing it under the heat lamp or through out the cage? Is her climbing to the top only at night or have you noticed her being more restless?

What is in your dirt layer and will it hold a tunnel?

 

[Troubledluna80]

Ok so this is the thing about a forum. You are going to get newbies chiming in that really have no idea what they are talking about. So my biggest tip is under the person's name you will see their forum status. If it says New Member take that feedback with a grain of salt and wait for more feedback. Your looking for avid members and chameleon enthusiasts to chime in.

There is nothing wrong with a basking fixture being on 10-3. I run mine 10-2 only And my boy will be 3 years old in June. We are mimicking nature as close as possible. So if we apply logic the hottest part of the day in nature is typically that window of time mid day. The other lighting will produce heat on its own as well. So Mist in the morning when basking is not on. It then allows for the humidity to be higher but cooler and then the cage slowly dries out during the day. Mist about an hour or so after basking is off this way temps have reduced. And then again an hour or so later. Your misting lengths will depend on your environment and enclosure. I am running 3-4 minutes mistings 3 times a day in my hybrid DS enclosure. BUT I do not have a bio active bottom like yours. So pay attention to your set up not what we do in ours. People forget that from one set up to the next it is not the exact same ambient temps or humidity levels due to where someone may live.
Now focus on humidity in that 45-55 range daytime. It can spike after misting but you want it to fall not stay steady at 70-80% during the day.
You can add a dripper to give her an opportunity to drink mid day.

I highly recommend PC fans with a hybrid cage. These sit on top and you aim them pulling the air up and out. I do happen to run an oscillating fan in front of mine 3 feet away in the evenings blowing air on low into the service door. I want the air movement because of the higher humidity I provide at night. I do not want stagnant yucky air. This is no bueno for the cham. Again this works in my environment with my set up. But as an example I am including it.

Due to her age you have to cut back her feedings. You are creating a perfect storm for a large clutch. Kick her back down to 5 medium feeders every other day over the next 4 weeks you want to work her into 3 feeder 3 days a week only.

Can you please post a pic of your supplements so I can ensure your schedule is correct? Typically recommended is multivitamin 2 times a month and calcium with D3 2 times a month. Unless the multi has D3 in it then it would be just 2 times a month for this. So the fact that your only providing each once a month sounds like it is not correct.

Now back to the gaping because this is the area of concern for me. Is she doing it under the heat lamp or through out the cage? Is her climbing to the top only at night or have you noticed her being more restless?

What is in your dirt layer and will it hold a tunnel?

OK that makes more sense to me about the lighting because that’s what I thought too. Only have it on as nature would because honestly with the bio active environment that’s what I’m trying to create the most natural environment possible. I will post pictures of my supplements. do do have other supplements I’ve already bought But honestly I don't know what is better. so the first picture will be what I’m currently using and then the second picture will be what I also already have at home. Thanks for the tips I do have a PC fan and I did like to run it my question is it can either Pull air up or push air in Which should I have it doing it is sitting on top of the rack above my cage but I can also put it right on top of the cage. I had it there originally but because she started screen cleaning I was worried that she would get her nails caught in it and I don’t want her to rip her nail out. That might not be possible because looking at it it The fan it’s protected I’ll take a picture of that too. Thanks for all of your help please let me know about the supplements because they are fairly confusing some that are marked no D3 actually have D3 in it and like I said I’m really new to all of this.

 

[Troubledluna80]

OK that makes more sense to me about the lighting because that’s what I thought too. Only have it on as nature would because honestly with the bio active environment that’s what I’m trying to create the most natural environment possible. I will post pictures of my supplements. do do have other supplements I’ve already bought But honestly I don't know what is better. so the first picture will be what I’m currently using and then the second picture will be what I also already have at home. Thanks for the tips I do have a PC fan and I did like to run it my question is it can either Pull air up or push air in Which should I have it doing it is sitting on top of the rack above my cage but I can also put it right on top of the cage. I had it there originally but because she started screen cleaning I was worried that she would get her nails caught in it and I don’t want her to rip her nail out. That might not be possible because looking at it it The fan it’s protected I’ll take a picture of that too. Thanks for all of your help please let me know about the supplements because they are fairly confusing some that are marked no D3 actually have D3 in it and like I said I’m really new to all of this.

Also I will take away the noon misting time and add a dripper.

 

[Troubledluna80]

Also does she look too small to you for her age? She only was opening her mouth earlier today I haven’t seen her do it since. I have attached a picture of her with my hand so you could see how big she is. As for the substrate it’s from the biodude it’s terra firma with leaf litter Sphagum moss and bamboo. I followed his video for set up.

 

[Beman]

OK that makes more sense to me about the lighting because that’s what I thought too. Only have it on as nature would because honestly with the bio active environment that’s what I’m trying to create the most natural environment possible. I will post pictures of my supplements. do do have other supplements I’ve already bought But honestly I don't know what is better. so the first picture will be what I’m currently using and then the second picture will be what I also already have at home. Thanks for the tips I do have a PC fan and I did like to run it my question is it can either Pull air up or push air in Which should I have it doing it is sitting on top of the rack above my cage but I can also put it right on top of the cage. I had it there originally but because she started screen cleaning I was worried that she would get her nails caught in it and I don’t want her to rip her nail out. That might not be possible because looking at it it The fan it’s protected I’ll take a picture of that too. Thanks for all of your help please let me know about the supplements because they are fairly confusing some that are marked no D3 actually have D3 in it and like I said I’m really new to all of this.

ok so you will aim the fan so that it is pulling air up and out. So you want it blowing up. I would put it directly on the screen cage. Even if she climbs the top she can not get hurt on it.

Per the supplements. Not my favorites at all. BUT. You can use the one that is exo terra that says just Calcium That would be used at all feedings. Now then for your others. The calcium with D3 exo terra would be used 2 times a month every other week and then the Herptivite multivitamin would be 2 times a month every other week. These two rotate back and forth every week at 1 feeding.
Now I prefer others just because your multivitamin is beta carotene based and there is a bit of controversy on if they can convert it to usable vitamin A. Should you want to change this you would buy Reptivite with D3 version. This is a multivitamin with A and calcium with D3. This one would only be used 2 times a month so say the 1st and 15th then all other feedings would be the exo terra calcium that does not say D3.

She looks like an average sized female. They are normally smaller. She is a pretty little girl. But time to cut back the food.

Watch the gaping. Two things here. It is a sign of a Respiratory Infection (RI) but also gravid females holding eggs will do it if they are holding a lot of eggs. I am not seeing eggs though. Should the gaping continue you need to take her to a reptile vet and see if she has an RI to start treatment. These escalate fast so keep an eye on her.

With your substrait I want you to dig test holes in different areas and make sure they hold for 72 hours. If they do then they will withstand her digging and the tunnel not collapsing.

 

[Troubledluna80]

ok so you will aim the fan so that it is pulling air up and out. So you want it blowing up. I would put it directly on the screen cage. Even if she climbs the top she can not get hurt on it.

Per the supplements. Not my favorites at all. BUT. You can use the one that is exo terra that says just Calcium That would be used at all feedings. Now then for your others. The calcium with D3 exo terra would be used 2 times a month every other week and then the Herptivite multivitamin would be 2 times a month every other week. These two rotate back and forth every week at 1 feeding.
Now I prefer others just because your multivitamin is beta carotene based and there is a bit of controversy on if they can convert it to usable vitamin A. Should you want to change this you would buy Reptivite with D3 version. This is a multivitamin with A and calcium with D3. This one would only be used 2 times a month so say the 1st and 15th then all other feedings would be the exo terra calcium that does not say D3.

She looks like an average sized female. They are normally smaller. She is a pretty little girl. But time to cut back the food.

Watch the gaping. Two things here. It is a sign of a Respiratory Infection (RI) but also gravid females holding eggs will do it if they are holding a lot of eggs. I am not seeing eggs though. Should the gaping continue you need to take her to a reptile vet and see if she has an RI to start treatment. These escalate fast so keep an eye on her.

With your substrait I want you to dig test holes in different areas and make sure they hold for 72 hours. If they do then they will withstand her digging and the tunnel not collapsing.

Ok sounds great I created a test tunnel last night so far it's holding I will see what happens. I switched fan to suck air up and out and put it on the screen. I already had an extra timer so I fixed heat lamp and adjusted the misting setting. I will add dripper tomorrow and keep track of humidity closely I am off tomorrow so it’ll be a good way to judge if It's starting to decrease. I have attached a picture to make sure I'm ordering right supplemental this time. Also to just to make sure I understand right I should do the exoterra calcium without d-3 daily and then the reptivite with D3 on first and 15th and those are only ones I need? Also until I get the Reptivite I will do exoterra calcium without D3 daily then every other Sunday do the exoterra with D3 and and the other Sundays do the multivitamin I have?

 

[Troubledluna80]

Ok sounds great I created a test tunnel last night so far it's holding I will see what happens. I switched fan to suck air up and out and put it on the screen. I already had an extra timer so I fixed heat lamp and adjusted the misting setting. I will add dripper tomorrow and keep track of humidity closely I am off tomorrow so it’ll be a good way to judge if It's starting to decrease. I have attached a picture to make sure I'm ordering right supplemental this time. Also to just to make sure I understand right I should do the exoterra calcium without d-3 daily and then the reptivite with D3 on first and 15th and those are only ones I need? Also until I get the Reptivite I will do exoterra calcium without D3 daily then every other Sunday do the exoterra with D3 and and the other Sundays do the multivitamin I have?

I should clarify exoterra without D3 Monday-saturday until I get the reptivite.

 

[Beman]

Ok sounds great I created a test tunnel last night so far it's holding I will see what happens. I switched fan to suck air up and out and put it on the screen. I already had an extra timer so I fixed heat lamp and adjusted the misting setting. I will add dripper tomorrow and keep track of humidity closely I am off tomorrow so it’ll be a good way to judge if It's starting to decrease. I have attached a picture to make sure I'm ordering right supplemental this time. Also to just to make sure I understand right I should do the exoterra calcium without d-3 daily and then the reptivite with D3 on first and 15th and those are only ones I need? Also until I get the Reptivite I will do exoterra calcium without D3 daily then every other Sunday do the exoterra with D3 and and the other Sundays do the multivitamin I have?

Yes, that is the right one and you are correct in the supplements. So what you want to look at is the last day you do D3 you will skip a week and begin the reptivite with D3. So if you did D3 yesterday then get your reptivite your going to start it on the 13th. We do not want to overdose her with D3 either. The reptivite has everything you need with the multivitamin including your vitamin A and Calcium with D3. So you will not need anything else besides the calcium without D3 at every feeding.

Watch for gaping today as well. Double check temps and humidity since your off work.

 

[Troubledluna80]

Yes, that is the right one and you are correct in the supplements. So what you want to look at is the last day you do D3 you will skip a week and begin the reptivite with D3. So if you did D3 yesterday then get your reptivite your going to start it on the 13th. We do not want to overdose her with D3 either. The reptivite has everything you need with the multivitamin including your vitamin A and Calcium with D3. So you will not need anything else besides the calcium without D3 at every feeding.

Watch for gaping today as well. Double check temps and humidity since your off work.

Thank you for explaining that I feel better about my supplement plan now. this morning I haven’t seen her do the mouth gaping at all but she is showing These spots in her color that I’ve never seen before. and she still definitely very pissed off because I am just approach the cage and she puffed up her body and her bright red throat. She popped for The first time this morning and it looks normal with white urates. The new color pattern makes me wonder if she has eggs.

 

[Beman]

Thank you for explaining that I feel better about my supplement plan now. this morning I haven’t seen her do the mouth gaping at all but she is showing These spots in her color that I’ve never seen before. and she still definitely very pissed off because I am just approach the cage and she puffed up her body and her bright red throat. She popped for The first time this morning and it looks normal with white urates. The new color pattern makes me wonder if she has eggs.

Yeah this was my concern and why I recommended to begin the reduction in feeding amounts.

Take pictures when you see stuff like this. You will want to learn what colors to reference for the future. Often the hardest part of chameleon husbandry is learning the behaviors and color changes of your cham.

 

[Troubledluna80]

Here's a picture of her this morning.

 

[Troubledluna80]

Yeah this was my concern and why I recommended to begin the reduction in feeding amounts.

Take pictures when you see stuff like this. You will want to learn what colors to reference for the future. Often the hardest part of chameleon husbandry is learning the behaviors and color changes of your cham.

I started reducing the feeding this morning. I hope if she does have eggs that there's not too many. maybe I will get lucky and it’s just her receptive colors so I still have time to help her not have a huge clutch. but just in case I will add a sheet over her cage for privacy. I will make sure it doesn’t cover up the bottom screen at all. The test hole I made is still holding strong So that's good. Thanks for all your help. I get paid this week so tomorrow I’m gonna make her a vet appointment just to be extra careful if she doesn’t have a respiratory infection. I'd rather take her now then have it sneak up on me plus they can check for eggs and then I will know for sure if she needs to lay. I kind of feel like if I don’t know for sure that I’m going to worry every day she doesn't lay. I'll keep you posted on what we find out.

 

[Troubledluna80]

I started reducing the feeding this morning. I hope if she does have eggs that there's not too many. maybe I will get lucky and it’s just her receptive colors so I still have time to help her not have a huge clutch. but just in case I will add a sheet over her cage for privacy. I will make sure it doesn’t cover up the bottom screen at all. The test hole I made is still holding strong So that's good. Thanks for all your help. I get paid this week so tomorrow I’m gonna make her a vet appointment just to be extra careful if she doesn’t have a respiratory infection. I'd rather take her now then have it sneak up on me plus they can check for eggs and then I will know for sure if she needs to lay. I kind of feel like if I don’t know for sure that I’m going to worry every day she doesn't lay. I'll keep you posted on what we find out.

Oh and my humidity is down to 45 this afternoon so that's better already.